Team A or Team B?

[Yankees2772]

Ok, so ignore the stats that don't go your way and I'M the only one being biased? I like how that works.

Robinson Cano fielded the most balls at 2nd last season... And also had the highest fielding %. I see that you don't like "old" stats and are going into the fancy sabremetrics, but it doesn't impress me that you can throw out numbers that you don't even understand the meaning of in your arguments.

Robinson Cano legitimately lead all of second basemen in every category that could be measured. I don't see how that is bad, regardless of what the sabremetrics may suggest... And to suggest that sabremetrics are perfect (considering that the way many are determined is by the eye of scouts).

 

[The Edge]

Ok, so ignore the stats that don't go your way and I'M the only one being biased? I like how that works.

Robinson Cano fielded the most balls at 2nd last season... And also had the highest fielding %. I see that you don't like "old" stats and are going into the fancy sabremetrics, but it doesn't impress me that you can throw out numbers that you don't even understand the meaning of in your arguments.

Robinson Cano legitimately lead all of second basemen in every category that could be measured. I don't see how that is bad, regardless of what the sabremetrics may suggest... And to suggest that sabremetrics are perfect (considering that the way many are determined is by the eye of scouts).

I'm the one quoting stats when your the one quoting "I SEEN HIM PLAY OVER 150 GAMES". Thats great and all that he fields the most balls but there are serious flaws in those standard stats like thinking Fielding percentage = Good fielding. My advanced metric stats correctly label the best of the games fielders. And even with several formula shifts over various stats they still say the same thing. Cano is basically worth -3 Runs....Where the best 2nd basemen in your division is worth about +8 runs. He's horrible at 2nd base and stats say that. Your eyes are biased and simple stats are heavily flawed.

 

[Yankees2772]

Don't you dare suggest that I typed something with the horrible grammar that you just wrote in for me in quotes. If YOU can explain to me in your own words how Cano is worth -3 runs going off of "your" (I like how you used the phrase "my advanced metric stats") stats, then maybe I'll listen to your argument. But for the time being, the sabremetrics are there just as a guiding light and are far from foolproof and will never be perfected.

"You use statistics like a drunk uses a light post. For support, and not for illumination."

I like how you are head strong in your arguments, I really do, but some times you have to look past the metrics that happen to be the flavor of the month.

 

[Elite]

C: Brian McCann vs. VMart = Every credible stat I can think of plus homerism Team A
1B: Joey Votto vs. Pujols = This very well depends on what your asking me to pick. Last Season: Votto. This Season: Money on Pujols. Going with this coming season so Team B
2B: Chase Utley vs. Cano: Tough one here...good all around 2nd basemen with a hip problem or a bad defensive one with great offense. I believe in having a complete team: Team A.
SS: Troy Tulowitzki vs. HanRam: Team A for the effort Tulo puts forth that HanRam doesn't
3B: Evan Longoria vs. Zimmerman. Anyone who doesn't pick Longoria needs to reevaluate the price he is signed at and the overall worth of him.
LF: Jacoby Ellsbury vs. Gardner. Team A. Not really much I can explain. I think NY overrates Gardner.
CF: Colby Rasmus vs. McCutchen: Rasmus easily
RF: Shin-Soo Choo vs. Werth: Another large media market guy that is overrated. Team A gets this one without thought.
DH: Vladimir Guerrero vs. Ortiz. My first toss up. I honestly haven't a clue. I think Vlad might give you slightly more versatility if he has to be in the field.

SP: Cliff Lee vs. Halladay: call me crazy here...but give me the best lefty in the game over the best righty. Team A.
SP: Tim Lincecum vs. Hernandez: Gotta go with Lincecum here even coming off a down year. Team A again.
SP: Josh Johnson vs. Sabathia: Johnson was money and easily the best pitcher until his injury last year by a wide margin according to tRA but I gotta give love to another bulldog lefty. Team B.
SP: Jon Lester vs. Waino: I think I have to give edge to Wainwright in this on. Team B
SP: David Price vs. Kershaw: Gotta keep Price atm. Slight, slight edge. Team A.
CP: Rafael Soriano vs. Wilson. No questions, no debate. Team B.

I don't think going position by position that I could vote for Team B at all.

Was pretty surprised you took Pillsbury over Gardner, considering all your fancy sabr stats point to Gardner being the far superior player and the best defensive OF this past season.

And I was simply talking in general, not just last season and not just for this upcoming season.

 

[The Edge]

Was pretty surprised you took Pillsbury over Gardner, considering all your fancy sabr stats point to Gardner being the far superior player and the best defensive OF this past season.

And I was simply talking in general, not just last season and not just for this upcoming season.

Maybe because I value the higher slugging percentage and wOBA to the slightly higher OBP and about the same potential in left field.

 

[The Edge]

Don't you dare suggest that I typed something with the horrible grammar that you just wrote in for me in quotes. If YOU can explain to me in your own words how Cano is worth -3 runs going off of "your" (I like how you used the phrase "my advanced metric stats") stats, then maybe I'll listen to your argument. But for the time being, the sabremetrics are there just as a guiding light and are far from foolproof and will never be perfected.

"You use statistics like a drunk uses a light post. For support, and not for illumination."

I like how you are head strong in your arguments, I really do, but some times you have to look past the metrics that happen to be the flavor of the month.

Yet you are going to stand behind pure chance stats such as how many times the ball was hit to Cano? Thats laughable and pure circumstance. Like your fellow homer Yankee fan, BC, I will now point out the flaw in your fielding percentage, the same flaw that was pointed out. Fielding percentage in no way takes into account how hard or where the ball was hit. He likes to say its a massive failure for UZR to not include this but then has no problem behind this stat being quoted. At least UZR takes a stab at showing where a ball was hit and where that said player can go get the ball at and over the course of a season or even multiple seasons, there begin to be patterns there. Like for instance an Andruw Jones being a +20 Career CFer being a pattern because he consistently was going and getting balls regardless of how hard hit they were. The stats may not be perfect but they are far from just closer to being the end all solution than chances and fielding percentage are.

Its quite odd in the grand scheme of the defensive values in fielding it places guys like Brooks Robinson, Andruw Jones, Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente among the elites, because they were elites and patterns developed. Cano has a pattern of being a horrible defensive second basemen so far. He put up an outlier season in that he was almost an average fielder. Lets not go getting carried away because you are #1. A fan of the yankees or #2. stating stuff like you seen him play because you are posting on a forum about sports for a reason and your eyes are both biased and not talented enough to judge talent or else you're views would be a lot more valuable than posting on some random message board.

 

[Phil The Thrill]

Was pretty surprised you took Pillsbury over Gardner, considering all your fancy sabr stats point to Gardner being the far superior player and the best defensive OF this past season.

And I was simply talking in general, not just last season and not just for this upcoming season.

Phillsbury? Twill much with gay nicknames.

 

[Elite]

Phillsbury? Twill much with gay nicknames.

I've always called him Pillsbury.

 

[bosoxlover12]

You used W-L records to compare pitchers, there's really no reason to argue baseball with you anymore.

Wins and Losses is the only way you could win your argument lol

 

[bosoxlover12]

Was pretty surprised you took Pillsbury over Gardner, considering all your fancy sabr stats point to Gardner being the far superior player and the best defensive OF this past season.

LOL you are funny

yes gardner had better stats last year... cuz ells was injured! he barely played! if you poll'd every baseball fan in the US, and took out all Yankees fans and Red Sox fans from the voting, Ellsbury would win without opposition. There is no way you can say Gardner is better than Ells

 

[Elite]

LOL you are funny

yes gardner had better stats last year... cuz ells was injured! he barely played! if you poll'd every baseball fan in the US, and took out all Yankees fans and Red Sox fans from the voting, Ellsbury would win without opposition. There is no way you can say Gardner is better than Ells

It was Gardner's first year being an everyday starter and I'd take his 2010 season over Ellsbury's 09 season anyday, especially considering Gardner is the better defender and he's not injury prone.

 

[The Edge]

It was Gardner's first year being an everyday starter and I'd take his 2010 season over Ellsbury's 09 season anyday, especially considering Gardner is the better defender and he's not injury prone.

Yeah you're so right...

because a .301/.355/.415 from a Lefty in a right handed hitter's ballpark is sooooooo much worse than a .277/.377/.379 in a left handed hitters dream park in NY


They both have the same fielding potential. Relatively similar speeds. But as career wOBA and the slashlines indicate, Ellsbury is the better hitter and he's not going to strike out every 5th at bat like Gardner.

 

[Yankees2772]

I'm not quite sure where I stand on Ellsbury/Gardner but you are missing a few things with Brett.

His home/away splits are nearly identical in every stat you'd want to examine for a leadoff guy like Gardner. So you suggesting him benefiting greatly from Yankee stadium is simply false.

Gardner strikes out as often as he does because many times he is there to take a bunch of pitches. This is something that he adds that the naked eye, or someone looking purely at statistics, does not see. Brett is one of the most patient hitters at the plate, and the value that is added by making a pitcher throw just one extra pitch 3 or 4 times makes just that much difference in the long run.

 

[The Edge]

I'm not quite sure where I stand on Ellsbury/Gardner but you are missing a few things with Brett.

His home/away splits are nearly identical in every stat you'd want to examine for a leadoff guy like Gardner. So you suggesting him benefiting greatly from Yankee stadium is simply false.

Gardner strikes out as often as he does because many times he is there to take a bunch of pitches. This is something that he adds that the naked eye, or someone looking purely at statistics, does not see. Brett is one of the most patient hitters at the plate, and the value that is added by making a pitcher throw just one extra pitch 3 or 4 times makes just that much difference in the long run.

I'm sorry but there is no way can you spin a leadoff hitter K'ing 20% of the time. A lead off hitter's K and BB % should be very close. I could understand the 20% k if he were drawing a walk about 18% of the time but he isn't as most Patient hitters are a hell of a lot closer in their percentages.

 

[Yankees2772]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/pitchesPerPlateAppearance/type/expanded/order/true

Spin that.

 

[Yankees2772]

Jacoby Ellsbury K/BB in 2009: .66
Gardner K/BB in 2010: .78

It seems to me that I may have stumbled upon a Yankee hater...

Oh, and for the record... Gardner's number is in the top 20 in the league this past season... So you seem to be making an awfully big deal about his K numbers when in reality I just showed you that it is no big deal whatsoever.

 

[The Edge]

Gardner is still a lead off hitter that strikes out 20% of his at bats... Ellsbury at least puts the ball in play an extra 10% of the time. IN no way was i comparing K/BB ratios because that is now becoming comfort is running and hiding behind the next stat you can find. Gardner is a K machine and not what a majority of people would want in their lead off spot.

 

[Elite]

Gardner is still a lead off hitter that strikes out 20% of his at bats... Ellsbury at least puts the ball in play an extra 10% of the time. IN no way was i comparing K/BB ratios because that is now becoming comfort is running and hiding behind the next stat you can find. Gardner is a K machine and not what a majority of people would want in their lead off spot.

He may strike out more than Ellsbury, but he still manages to get on base more, that's what I want out of my lead-off man. I don't care if he struck out in 6 times out of 10, as long as he's getting on base the other 4 times.

The whole goal of a lead-off man is to see a lot of pitches and to get on base for the meat of your order. You seem to have lost your baseball logic in your fascination with sabr stats.

Not to mention Gardner doesn't even bat lead-off, although he should.

 

[xMagic12x]

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