Team A or Team B?

[Phil The Thrill]

Strikeouts aren't a big deal at all. CC isn't a major strikeout pitcher anymore either. He's really using his changeup a lot more and has been pitching to contact a lot more than he ever has in the last two years.

That's why a team would want Price, Kershaw or Lester. Clearly shows Sabathia is going down hill if he is no longer able to put up big strikeout numbers.

 

[Elite]

He can still put up big strikeout numbers but it's not smart to challenge hitters in Yankee Stadium because if you miss your spot that ball is leaving the ballpark 9 times out of 10. He's extremely effective no matter which way he goes about pitching and big strikeout numbers don't make you a better pitcher in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Phil The Thrill]

You just said he can't put up big numbers. lol

Run Support also helps:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/514745-al-cy-young-award-felix-hernandez-more-deserving-than-cc-sabathia

 

[Elite]

I said he's not a major strikeout pitcher anymore, I never said that he couldn't be.

Run support also has a bad effect on pitchers. CC is constantly pitching with the lead meaning that he doesn't feel the need to go out there and give 100%. When you're down, you're giving 110% and making sure that you're keeping your team in the game. And I'm not even saying that CC should win the Cy Young because I already said that Felix should win it.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

Yeah but I highly doubt Lester would have allowed 6 more homeruns and 42 more hits in 30 innings. Also Lester had a lot ore strikeouts.

Avg, innings, and hits go hand in hand.

If they have a very similar AVG allowed, then if Lester pitches more innings he'll allow right around 200 hits.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

He can still put up big strikeout numbers but it's not smart to challenge hitters in Yankee Stadium because if you miss your spot that ball is leaving the ballpark 9 times out of 10. He's extremely effective no matter which way he goes about pitching and big strikeout numbers don't make you a better pitcher in any way, shape, or form.

being able to strike out hitters makes you more intimidating on the mound. It means you can record outs without having to rely on your infield to make the outs. You take it in your own hands.

It's not crucial, but saying strikeout numbers don't matter is pretty ignorant. Some of the greatest pitchers in MLB History were known for their ability to strikeout batters. Fans like to see power pitchers rack up that K column.

 

[Elite]

Considering CC still struck out almost 200 guys, it's irrelevant.

 

[Giantmetfan07]

Oh I'm not doubting his ability to strikeout batters -- just stating that power pitchers are good because of their ability to be dominant and intimidating on the mound, because they can record those outs without letting the batter put the ball in play.

 

[Phil The Thrill]

Im not doubting Sabathia is a great pitcher. But clearly he is not easily better. Maybe my first comment with him being the worst was exaggerating, but he sure won't be a top pick in many people's minds.

 

[Mexi]

Clayton Kershaw :blondboob:

lol look at the debate i started. hehe

CC doenst suck, but i would put him behind the other 3 lefties.
but if i did put CC ahead of them, it's because he's durable.
the other guys have that K threat though. and are all a lot younger, especially Kershaw

 

[Giantmetfan07]

I love how most people consider him right up there for the AL Cy Young award and you guys say he's not that good.


I like him better than the others because he is a workhorse and has the experience.

 

[The Edge]

C: Brian McCann vs. VMart = Every credible stat I can think of plus homerism Team A
1B: Joey Votto vs. Pujols = This very well depends on what your asking me to pick. Last Season: Votto. This Season: Money on Pujols. Going with this coming season so Team B
2B: Chase Utley vs. Cano: Tough one here...good all around 2nd basemen with a hip problem or a bad defensive one with great offense. I believe in having a complete team: Team A.
SS: Troy Tulowitzki vs. HanRam: Team A for the effort Tulo puts forth that HanRam doesn't
3B: Evan Longoria vs. Zimmerman. Anyone who doesn't pick Longoria needs to reevaluate the price he is signed at and the overall worth of him.
LF: Jacoby Ellsbury vs. Gardner. Team A. Not really much I can explain. I think NY overrates Gardner.
CF: Colby Rasmus vs. McCutchen: Rasmus easily
RF: Shin-Soo Choo vs. Werth: Another large media market guy that is overrated. Team A gets this one without thought.
DH: Vladimir Guerrero vs. Ortiz. My first toss up. I honestly haven't a clue. I think Vlad might give you slightly more versatility if he has to be in the field.

SP: Cliff Lee vs. Halladay: call me crazy here...but give me the best lefty in the game over the best righty. Team A.
SP: Tim Lincecum vs. Hernandez: Gotta go with Lincecum here even coming off a down year. Team A again.
SP: Josh Johnson vs. Sabathia: Johnson was money and easily the best pitcher until his injury last year by a wide margin according to tRA but I gotta give love to another bulldog lefty. Team B.
SP: Jon Lester vs. Waino: I think I have to give edge to Wainwright in this on. Team B
SP: David Price vs. Kershaw: Gotta keep Price atm. Slight, slight edge. Team A.
CP: Rafael Soriano vs. Wilson. No questions, no debate. Team B.

I don't think going position by position that I could vote for Team B at all.

 

[Yankees2772]

Cano is a bad defensive 2b?

 

[The Edge]

Cano is a bad defensive 2b?

Pretty bad. This past year he wasn't that bad but to say he was anymore than below average is a major overstatement.

Gold gloves are completely subjective and reputation based and do not in any way take into account defensive ability. I.E. Jeter has the least defensive value of any Shortstop in the history of the game of baseball(-113 to -90, -70s for 2nd and 3rd worst) basically a huge margin and he has how many gold gloves?

Robinson Cano = Poor defensive second basemen.

 

[Yankees2772]

You said Robinson Cano was a bad fielding second basemen, then went on a tangent against Derek Jeter.

Robby Cano's range factor this year was pretty good, if I recall he was top 5.

Watching him play over 150 games last season, I can say that he is an excellent fielding second baseman. At times, he can be pretty lazy and to be honest I think he jogs to balls to make it look like he isn't trying and it makes the play look a bunch better. He has the best arm I've seen from a second baseman to boot.

 

[The Edge]

You said Robinson Cano was a bad fielding second basemen, then went on a tangent against Derek Jeter.

Robby Cano's range factor this year was pretty good, if I recall he was top 5.

Watching him play over 150 games last season, I can say that he is an excellent fielding second baseman. At times, he can be pretty lazy and to be honest I think he jogs to balls to make it look like he isn't trying and it makes the play look a bunch better. He has the best arm I've seen from a second baseman to boot.

His defensive value places him 12 of 20 qualifying 2nd basemen

 

[The Edge]

Watching him play over 150 games last season, I can say that he is an excellent fielding second baseman. At times, he can be pretty lazy and to be honest I think he jogs to balls to make it look like he isn't trying and it makes the play look a bunch better. He has the best arm I've seen from a second baseman to boot.

Your eyes don't mean shit. Statistics post his defensive WAR as to be below average this past year. And since 2004 Stats say his defense is only better than Kent, Schumaker, and Uggla at the position.

 

[Yankees2772]

You can lean on your sabermetrics, and I'll use mine. Including stats from 2004-2009 has no bearing on him this year and going forward. How do you argue him being top 5 in range factor?

 

[The Edge]

You can lean on your sabermetrics, and I'll use mine. Including stats from 2004-2009 has no bearing on him this year and going forward. How do you argue him being top 5 in range factor?

Did you conveniently ignore the fact that his 2010 defensive value was the 8th worst of any qualifying 2nd basemen and that 11 other 2nd basemen have more defensive value than he does?

I'm sorry but once again, this is another case of a Yankee fan being butthurt because a stat doesn't say what you want it to say and dismiss defensive values that place the best fielders with the best fielders of all time. I'm sorry its right for everything else but just because it says something negative about Yankee doesn't mean its a bad stat. Your eyes are VERY biased. The stats aren't.

 

[The Edge]

also to the Range Factor that may have been top 5 in 2010...his Range Runs above average was 2nd worst.