2013-2014 NBA Season Thread

[Pugz]

no, see, his team isn't playing half bad right now.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

And Dan knows this, but it isn't about Cleveland. Put Kyrie on LA, MIA, hell New Orleans or Detroit, and how much better does that team become? I've said Kyrie isn't a winner, more along the lines of it's hard to be successful in the NBA when you have a PG with the skill set Kyrie does. However, I've also said that Kyrie doesn't make as big as an impact as his statline or ESPN want you to believe. You can look at Kyries assist numbers and say that he doesn't trust his teammates, but the truth is he'd rather go outside the offense and play for himself. I mean if you look at his assist opportunities, he's in line with ball dominate wings like Kobe, LeBron, Harden, Monta Ellis, Gordon Hayward.

And I'm stating the obvious here, but a elite PF lends a greater helping hand to winning basketball games than a ball dominate PG who doesn't play defense. And for the record, when the Pels have had their core healthy, they've been pretty good.

 

[elcheato]

Funny, because his play is for himself too. He just happens to have LaMarcus Alrdige, Wes Matthews & Nicolas Batum on his team. Making him a "winner".

 

[elcheato]

And Dan knows this, but it isn't about Cleveland. Put Kyrie on LA, MIA, hell New Orleans or Detroit, and how much better does that team become? I've said Kyrie isn't a winner, more along the lines of it's hard to be successful in the NBA when you have a PG with the skill set Kyrie does. However, I've also said that Kyrie doesn't make as big as an impact as his statline or ESPN want you to believe. You can look at Kyries assist numbers and say that he doesn't trust his teammates, but the truth is he'd rather go outside the offense and play for himself. I mean if you look at his assist opportunities, he's in line with ball dominate wings like Kobe, LeBron, Harden, Monta Ellis, Gordon Hayward.

And I'm stating the obvious here, but a elite PF lends a greater helping hand to winning basketball games than a ball dominate PG who doesn't play defense. And for the record, when the Pels have had their core healthy, they've been pretty good.

And it's ridiculous to say you can't win with Kyrie because of his ball dominant based skill set at point guard. LeBron, Kobe & Harden aren't listed at point guard because of their height, but guess what? They hold the ball more than anyone on their team and in essence are the de-facto point guards of their teams, and none of their teams actually have "true" point guards. They don't always bring the ball up past the half court line, but they're getting the ball sooner rather than later, and they're going to run the offense, looking to score before pass.
 
I don't even care about debating between a PF and a PG. I was being sarcastic.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Not true. Lillard plays much more within the frame work of the offense. Sure he brings the ball up and gets the team into their initial offense, but working off the ball make up a larger percentage of his offensive game. Spotting up, coming off screens, cutting, in transition, etc. Isolation for example, 17% of Kyries offensive possessions come out of isolation sets, where as just 11% of Lillards come out of isolation. Lillard is essentially a swing after that first pass.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

And it's ridiculous to say you can't win with Kyrie because of his ball dominant based skill set at point guard. LeBron, Kobe & Harden aren't listed at point guard because of their height, but guess what? They hold the ball more than anyone on their team and in essence are the de-facto point guards of their teams, and none of their teams actually have "true" point guards. They don't always bring the ball up past the half court line, but they're getting the ball sooner rather than later, and they're going to run the offense, looking to score before pass.
 
I don't even care about debating between a PF and a PG. I was being sarcastic.

Those are also, once again, guys who play off the ball more than Kyrie. Over the course of 48 minutes, you are looking at Kyrie having the ball in his hands about 14 more times per game than LeBron, and about 24 more times than Harden. And that brings me to another point that needs to be brought up, you're giving Kyrie that many touches, when LeBron and Harden are both in the low to mid 60's in true shooting percentage, while Kyrie is in the low 50's. We're talking about the difference between being super elite (LeBron and Harden) to being merely average (Kyrie). And that's kind of where the difference comes into play, aside from scoring out of the PnR, Kyrie is kind of average across the board.

 

[elcheato]

Not true. Lillard plays much more within the frame work of the offense. Sure he brings the ball up and gets the team into their initial offense, but working off the ball make up a larger percentage of his offensive game. Spotting up, coming off screens, cutting, in transition, etc. Isolation for example, 17% of Kyries offensive possessions come out of isolation sets, where as just 11% of Lillards come out of isolation. Lillard is essentially a swing after that first pass.

He plays within the framework of his offense.
 
Now this is an actual quote from Mike Brown on his offense after they traded for Spencer Hawes:
 

Our offense is not complex at all. I was talking to him on the phone and he said, "Yeah, we just played you guys so I've got a good feel for what you guys do." I said, "You probably do cause what you went over in your scouting report is all we do."

 
This is by design, a horrible design at that.

 

[elcheato]

Those are also, once again, guys who play off the ball more than Kyrie. Over the course of 48 minutes, you are looking at Kyrie having the ball in his hands about 14 more times per game than LeBron, and about 24 more times than Harden. And that brings me to another point that needs to be brought up, you're giving Kyrie that many touches, when LeBron and Harden are both in the low to mid 60's in true shooting percentage, while Kyrie is in the low 50's. We're talking about the difference between being super elite (LeBron and Harden) to being merely average (Kyrie).

Yes, they are guys who while are ball dominant, play off ball more, because they have other talent surrounding them who warrant touches, and a stake in controlling the offense. They had the right idea with getting a guard like Dion next to him, but he's inefficient and not good enough. Who exactly do you want taking those touches away from Kyrie on the Cavs?

 

[jonathanlambert33]

That is not what I'm arguing. Reread the last two sentences of my last post regarding guys like LeBron and Harden.

 

[elcheato]

And as I've said, I can't hold his hiccups in isolation, spot ups, off screens, etc.. completely against him. Does he have work to do and has he played selfish? Sure, but there is still a factor of team mates and coaching, and you're essentially dismissing it and throwing blame on Kyrie entirely. Defenses aren't going to leave him to help on Thompson, Varejao, Waiters. If he goes off a screen, you're not worrying about the screener, it's all Kyrie. His hand is forced in isolation essentially into throwing up a wild shot near the paint or a contested long jumper. There is no room to operate with big man pairs Mike Brown throws out there. I'd like to see how he plays in lineups with Dion, CJ, Bennett & Hawes, which would give him infinitely more room to operate than he's ever had. Never going to see a lineup like that, but whatever.
 
Look no further than Luol Deng, who excels off ball who has been turned into an isolation and post up player under Mike Brown. He doesn't know how to utilize offensive talent.
 
Kyrie has work to do, I'm not arguing that. The loser title is just absurd, and I'll continue to stress that until he has actual coaching and talent that fits. Maybe that won't happen until he were to leave, and so be it.

I look dumb enough without you throwing these legitimate stats at me

 

[Mexi]

im not a huge kyrie fan, but calling someone a loser after just 3 years is stupid
 
i agree with cheato though, his situation hasnt really been ideal since he's been in the NBA

 

[ambivalentSoul]

Anyone else think LeBron and Iggy look like brothers?

 

[BwareDWare94]

The game was over, so I don't care, in that context, but as far as double standards are concerned, I can't believe Chris Paul hasn't been fined for this:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8PPx6ONMMI
 
It still baffles me how this guy can be such a little bitch out there and his reputation around the league isn't shot. And that just scratches the surface of how dirty he is, as a player. The flops are one of the harmless things, but the stuff he does to opponents on a nightly basis, the constant elbows and shove offs, I just don't get it. Beverly is a pest, but earlier in the same game Chris just elbowed Pat in the face, and it was clearly intentional. They called a foul of Pat's face, apparently, and CP3 does this to everybody. It's the very reason I won't miss him when he retires. 

Is there a dirtier player, from a context of unnecessary shots to opposing players? 

 

[CameronCrazy06]

^ you mad

 

[Mobruler]

I think Carmelo Anthony and Josh Smith are the only players in the NBA that deserve the distinction of not being able to win with them.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

^ you mad

No he's got a point. This is coming from a Chris Paul fan, but he and Griffin flop all over the place and always get the benefit of the doubt, and rarely get warned for it. What they have, one between them?

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

Every player has flopped at least once

 

[elcheato]

lol @ those Rockets announcers. At least I know partially where Bware gets his material from. How they reacted is basically how I imagine Bware on a telecast.

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

The game was over, so I don't care, in that context, but as far as double standards are concerned, I can't believe Chris Paul hasn't been fined for this:
 

 
It still baffles me how this guy can be such a little bitch out there and his reputation around the league isn't shot. And that just scratches the surface of how dirty he is, as a player. The flops are one of the harmless things, but the stuff he does to opponents on a nightly basis, the constant elbows and shove offs, I just don't get it. Beverly is a pest, but earlier in the same game Chris just elbowed Pat in the face, and it was clearly intentional. They called a foul of Pat's face, apparently, and CP3 does this to everybody. It's the very reason I won't miss him when he retires. 

Is there a dirtier player, from a context of unnecessary shots to opposing players? 

And you wanna talk about flopping when you got flop star Harden.

 

[elcheato]

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OaiUCJCwGo[/media]
Beverley recovered awful quickly there after looking at the ref while clenching his stomach.
 
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePtiNqJ0VPQ[/media]
Westbrook going to call a timeout, and Beverley flies into his knee, not dirty
 
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vDMwUc7J0[/media]
Beverley swipes at a guys leg (1:35), takes him down to the floor, and walks towards him as he's getting up
 
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