2013-2014 NBA Season Thread

[jonathanlambert33]

And as I've said, I can't hold his hiccups in isolation, spot ups, off screens, etc.. completely against him. Does he have work to do and has he played selfish? Sure, but there is still a factor of team mates and coaching, and you're essentially dismissing it and throwing blame on Kyrie entirely. Defenses aren't going to leave him to help on Thompson, Varejao, Waiters. If he goes off a screen, you're not worrying about the screener, it's all Kyrie. His hand is forced in isolation essentially into throwing up a wild shot near the paint or a contested long jumper. There is no room to operate with big man pairs Mike Brown throws out there. I'd like to see how he plays in lineups with Dion, CJ, Bennett & Hawes, which would give him infinitely more room to operate than he's ever had. Never going to see a lineup like that, but whatever.
 
Look no further than Luol Deng, who excels off ball who has been turned into an isolation and post up player under Mike Brown. He doesn't know how to utilize offensive talent.
 
Kyrie has work to do, I'm not arguing that. The loser title is just absurd, and I'll continue to stress that until he has actual coaching and talent that fits. Maybe that won't happen until he were to leave, and so be it.

I look dumb enough without you throwing these legitimate stats at me

I've spoken at great detail on this site about the Cavaliers lack of ingenuity and inability to manufacture effective offensive possessions. So no, I do not put the blame exclusively on Kyrie. But at the same time, I'm not buying what you're selling, about Kyrie being Kyrie because of his lack of teammates, or his lack of trust in his teammates, and his coaches inability to run good offensive sets. Example that comes to mind, is it Kyrie's teammates and coaches that are forcing him into taking a large amount of inefficient mid range jumpers, or is it Kyrie?

Kyrie takes an inordinate amount of long twos. About 22.9% of Kyries shots are long twos, say 21+ feet. About 36% of his shots are midrange jumpers, outside the paint but inside the 3pt arc. Now you compare that to some other NBA PG's, of all varieties? Roughly 28% of Stephen Curry's jumpers are mid range shots, Curry also takes around 23% of his shots from that 21+ foot mark, but he hits them at an incredible 48%, Kyrie is 10 percentage points less at 38%. Only 16% of Damian Lillard's shots are from mid range, and 13.1% of those shots are from 21+ feet. Kyle Lowry falls a little bit below that 16% mark, with 11.8% coming from 21+ feet, and Isaiah Thomas is at 22%, 13.5% being long twos. Chris Paul takes about 43% of his shots from midrange, with 20% coming from 21+ feet. Difference with Chris is, his percentages from 21+ are above average (about 45%), and he takes more short twos (34.4%) than long twos. He's remarkably good at it as well, shooting 48%, which is above average. Kyrie for comparisons sake is a hair above 41%, which is about average. Maybe you try to throw that at Brown and the team, but that's on Kyrie for taking the long inefficient shots. I've had this argument a million times with Pelican fans, Mike Brown isn't going out there and saying "Kyrie, take the midrange jumper!" I mean you say he doesn't have room to operate, but he's shooting about 57% at the rim, which is solid enough. I didn't really want to say it, but watching Kyrie, and looking at the numbers after, it really just screams average.

I'm not sure how much of Deng you watched before the trade to Cleveland, or how closely you actually watched him if you did, but Deng in Chicago and Cleveland is doing about the same thing. In Cleveland, about 16.8% of Deng's possessions end in isolation or post up attempts, that same number was at 16.9% in Chicago. I'm watching these possessions from Chicago and Cleveland, and honestly I don't really see that much difference.

He's getting open looks, but his shot just isn't falling at the same rate. And giving credit where it is due, Cleveland is doing a good job getting him switched onto smaller post defenders:

However, whose shoulders does this next image fall on?:

There you have Kyrie and Hawes, occupying one area, and making it really easy for Memphis to play defense. Again, I don't think Mike Brown or anyone on the Cavs staff is telling Kyrie and Hawes to stand shoulder to shoulder. I'm not saying this is the case, but perhaps this is another example of low basketball IQ for Kyrie?

And from all the film I watched on Deng in Chicago, that was not a problem that presented itself:

 

[elcheato]

I don't know where you're getting the 22% of Kyrie's shots being long twos at 21+ feet. He has only taken 70 shots from at least 20 feet out that aren't 3s, which accounts for about 6% of his total shots. I'm guessing you meant every shot from 21+ feet for the 22%, but 22% of his shots are not 2 points from 21+ feet. His mid range shots have gone up every year, which is on him, but it's also poor coaching and front office observation to not iron this out. Only 24% of his attempts were mid range shots as a rookie, went up to 34% last year, and it's up to 36% this year. Teams are intelligently putting him into these spots, because the Cavs have no outside threats, and for the most part two big men who clog the paint (Thompson,Varejao). He has learned some bad habits, but for the most part, he has to take those shots. The Cavs don't create easy offense, the personnel as a whole, and the team infrastructure have created this (The Cavs have taken the 2nd most mid range shots in the league).
And on that screen grab, you're looking at 3 different players, who have spent very little time playing together. Deng stepped back and took the shot anyway, which everyone knew was going to happen. He had Conley on him. Hawes was getting ready to set a pick, and Kyrie saw the mismatch so he gave it up, and Hawes was still there. Marc Gasol and Tony Allen are practically hugging each other in the screengrab, do they have a low basketball IQ?

 

[Giantmetfan07]

2 minutes left in the first half. Noah has 11 pts, 7 rebounds and 9 assists. 

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I made the up 21+ number because I'm not sure how long it actually is. 18 ft, 21 ft, I don't know. I'm just talking about long twos.

Either way though, he HAS to take those shots? Come on man, that's ridiculous. He's taking those shots because he's settling for them.

As for the screen grab you were talking about, it's irrelevant was Hawes was coming do. If you get the correct basketball instruction, you learn from an early age that when the ball enters the post you can't have two guys occupying the same area on the floor. That's something I teach my 12 year olds. Once that ball enters the post, you clear out and spread the floor. Neither Kyrie or Hawes did that, the fact that Hawes was coming to set a screen really doesn't matter, each of them had 4-5 seconds to clear and neither did. And in regards to Gasol and Allen, they were both making the proper rotations and just happened to run into each other as Allen's back was to Gasol. In no way does that show any sort of lack of IQ.

 

[elcheato]

When you look at his rookie year and the 24% figure from mid range and the drastic increase it's taken, you can look at it in two ways. Defenses have adjusted to him based on his own tendencies, or defenses have changed the way they play him because of the personnel around him. Maybe it's a cop out argument, but he's not being put in a position to succeed. The most prevalently used 3 man combination on the Cavs is Kyrie/Varejao/Thompson

 

[jonathanlambert33]

It's not an easy task getting to the basket when you have no outside threats, and no big man who commands attention.
 
When you look at his rookie year and the 24% figure from mid range and the drastic increase it's taken, you can look at it in two ways. Defenses have adjusted to him based on his own tendencies, or defenses have changed the way they play him because of the personnel around him. Maybe it's a cop out argument, but he's not being put in a position to succeed. The most prevalently used 3 man combination on the Cavs is Kyrie/Varejao/Thompson

Guys like Kyrie, Tyreke, etc, guys who have the ball on a string can get to the basket. Where having not outside threats or no bigs who command attention comes into play is finishing at the rim. Which like I stated earlier, Kyrie is actually decent enough at.

I'm going to be completely honest with you, and it's going to be harsh, but I've seen a lot of Kyrie in the past, and I've been watching a lot of him since last night and this morning/early afternoon. I really do not see much evidence that backs up what you're saying. I don't think it has nearly as much to do with the personnel around him as you want to believe, and more to do with the fact that he'd rather take some flashy dribbles to size up his defender then pull up for an ill advised low percentage jumper. I do not see much evidence that points to he's really willing to go into the paint amongst the trees, unless he has a lane big enough to drive a lane through.

Probably the best example I saw of this was a play against Utah, where he gets to the nail because Richard Jefferson did not show early enough, and he essentially has a one on one matchup against Derrick Favors. Favors is a step outside of the restricted arc, and a left handed finish would have been sufficient enough. Instead, he tries to go across his body to dump it off to dump it off to Tristan Thompson, but the ball ends up bouncing off of Favors and goes the other way.

 

[Mexi]

Get a blog you two

 

[CameronCrazy06]

He put Kyrie and Tyreke in the same sentence.

 

[elcheato]

Get a blog you two

He has embarrassed me enough, I don't need a daily reminder.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Do they not both have good handles?  Or did I accidentally type something untrue like "Tyreke's jumper is on Kyrie's level" and just not realize it?

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Tyreke's handle isn't in the same stratosphere as Kyrie's but very few players' are. I think it was a big reach though.

 

[Pugz]

all ive been saying is kyrie is getting used to be Tue only option and getting used to a certain style of okay that it'll be his style of play if they don't try to get the types of players around him he needs. its not necessarily a bad thing, but it could turn into one. its not his fault, either.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Tyreke's handle isn't in the same stratosphere as Kyrie's but very few players' are. I think it was a big reach though.

I'll just respect your opinion and level of reading ability...

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I mean they kinda rhyme but that's about as far as the similarities go.

 

[Mexi]

Tyreke has handles

 

[Mexi]

I havent read shit

But kyrie has the best handles ive seen I think (sorry chris paul)

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I mean they kinda rhyme but that's about as far as the similarities go.

 

 

[CameronCrazy06]

It's Kyrie 1 and J-Crawford 2 in the NBA imo.

 

[Mexi]

Joakim is so bad ass

 

[youngguru]

Curry 3