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I'd be happy with Bortles at #4
2014 Prospect Talk Thread
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He has a big arm and size and that's about all. MIsses easy throws, bad deep ball, hasn't shown and wasn't asked to make NFL reads or progressions. He's a very different player from Gabbert, but I think he'll suffer the same fate. I mean his own college coach doesn't think he's a franchise QB lol, what does that tell you? He makes 2 or 3 wow throws a game and people have rolled with that. He's make a lot more head scratchers.
I wasn't planning to make anymore analysis threads, but I may for Bortles just because I can't believe the hype he's getting.
I wasn't planning to make anymore analysis threads, but I may for Bortles just because I can't believe the hype he's getting.
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You're taking his coaches quote out of context. He referred to guys like Luck only as franchise QBs. Said no one in this draft is like that, which is right
Most college QBs aren't asked to make reads or progressions, because that's not in the best interest of the coach.
And I don't know how you can use that argument against Bortles, and then be fine with Carr, who is completely system made, with very few reads himself. I'm much confident in taking the guy with the high arm talent who faced inferior competition, than the guy whose throws very rarely reached the sticks against inferior opponents.
Most college QBs aren't asked to make reads or progressions, because that's not in the best interest of the coach.
And I don't know how you can use that argument against Bortles, and then be fine with Carr, who is completely system made, with very few reads himself. I'm much confident in taking the guy with the high arm talent who faced inferior competition, than the guy whose throws very rarely reached the sticks against inferior opponents.
I realize most QBs aren't asked to, hence why I like Mettenberger. He was asked to, and excelled at it.
I explained why I like Carr more: his accuracy issues can be fixed. Bortles just straight misses them. And yes, most of his throws were 1-10, but when Carr was asked to make throws down the field, no matter how often it was, he delivered strikes on a rope. Bortles has issues throwing the ball down the field, negating his major positive: his big arm.
Neither guy was asked to do much, I agree. So if I'm basing my opinion on these two purely on physical tools, Carr wins. Yes Bortles is bigger, but Carr isn't small either, is faster, has a stronger arm, and is more accurate down the field. He also has shown he has the ability of anticipation which I haven't seen from Bortles.
I explained why I like Carr more: his accuracy issues can be fixed. Bortles just straight misses them. And yes, most of his throws were 1-10, but when Carr was asked to make throws down the field, no matter how often it was, he delivered strikes on a rope. Bortles has issues throwing the ball down the field, negating his major positive: his big arm.
Neither guy was asked to do much, I agree. So if I'm basing my opinion on these two purely on physical tools, Carr wins. Yes Bortles is bigger, but Carr isn't small either, is faster, has a stronger arm, and is more accurate down the field. He also has shown he has the ability of anticipation which I haven't seen from Bortles.
Cheato man, I'm not lying to you watch this game here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTNvSHLhf9M
He missed numerous WR's entirely, and even when he did hit his guy, it was off target enough to not allow him to run after the catch. His accuracy is just bad. This whole game he made 2 nice throws: one deep one down the sidelines and another deep inn at about 12 yards. Those were it. Most of his throws here are to hooks, the easiest throw possible. Yet he somehow manages to make it look difficult. And this was considered one of his best games.
He missed numerous WR's entirely, and even when he did hit his guy, it was off target enough to not allow him to run after the catch. His accuracy is just bad. This whole game he made 2 nice throws: one deep one down the sidelines and another deep inn at about 12 yards. Those were it. Most of his throws here are to hooks, the easiest throw possible. Yet he somehow manages to make it look difficult. And this was considered one of his best games.
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I'm aware his accuracy needs work, but I would always draft the guy with more overall ability and try to iron out the weaknesses. Just how I think. There's nothing you can do to teach his size, arm strength and mobility. Can you teach accuracy? Not really, but over time it can improve.
The accuracy is concerning though, no doubt.
The accuracy is concerning though, no doubt.
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Obviously 100% different prospects, but you couldn't teach Jamarcus Russell's size, strength, & mobility either....
Bortles scares me. His lack of professions is bad; you can get away with that in college but not the NFL. He has the physical skills to succeed in the league, but that's far from the most essential vitals to have
Bortles scares me. His lack of professions is bad; you can get away with that in college but not the NFL. He has the physical skills to succeed in the league, but that's far from the most essential vitals to have
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The only reads Cam Newton was making in college was whether he was going to hand off or hold into the ball in option read looks. There are cases of success and failure every where with similar situations. Bortles and Newton aren't similar, just making a point
This is always my view in football and basketball for the most part. If you're athletic and have other tools that are important and can't be taught, you're higher on my board. I always go potential. Whether this is a smart view or not is another question.
The hope would be, when asked to make the reads and progressions, he'll be smart enough to excel and the speed of the game won't be too much.
This is always my view in football and basketball for the most part. If you're athletic and have other tools that are important and can't be taught, you're higher on my board. I always go potential. Whether this is a smart view or not is another question.
The hope would be, when asked to make the reads and progressions, he'll be smart enough to excel and the speed of the game won't be too much.
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I agree with that in general, that if you are athletically gifted, you should go higher. Ezekiel Ansah barely played football before last year, but due to sheer upside went #5. But I think there is a difference between someone who is running and jumping, compared to the passer.
I know the whole dawn of time right now is the read option QB like Kaep and Cam Newton, but look at the top QBs in the league now: Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, and hell I'll throw in Luck and Rivers because they had really good years
Of those six, how many would you say are good because they are athletically gifted? None. Rodgers and Luck have great athleticism for a QB, but that's not why they are good. They have the ability to go thru progressions and hit the right guy (or the left guy) at the correct time.
So yes that is important that Bortles had great physical attributes, but if you can't stand in the pocket and make the correct throws, you are going to have a hard time in this league
I know the whole dawn of time right now is the read option QB like Kaep and Cam Newton, but look at the top QBs in the league now: Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, and hell I'll throw in Luck and Rivers because they had really good years
Of those six, how many would you say are good because they are athletically gifted? None. Rodgers and Luck have great athleticism for a QB, but that's not why they are good. They have the ability to go thru progressions and hit the right guy (or the left guy) at the correct time.
So yes that is important that Bortles had great physical attributes, but if you can't stand in the pocket and make the correct throws, you are going to have a hard time in this league
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Kaep and Newton are talented passers to go with their mobility and ability to run multiple sets and different schemes, that's what makes them good. You can't, long term, have success with a guy who simply runs the read option because he's athletic, and lacks passing skills (Tebow).
I realize that, and I'm saying that it's difficult to project how someone will deal with having to go through reads. Im just not a fan of holding that against a college kid. Sure, you can elevate a kid who is already making progressions, as titan has done with Mettenberger,because that is impressive, and kudos to Les Miles for actually preparing his players for the next step. Guys like Carr, Bortles, Manziel were put in basic systems with reads being pre-determined. You're picking on pure upside, and this all depends on what skills and attributes are more valuable to whoever
I realize that, and I'm saying that it's difficult to project how someone will deal with having to go through reads. Im just not a fan of holding that against a college kid. Sure, you can elevate a kid who is already making progressions, as titan has done with Mettenberger,because that is impressive, and kudos to Les Miles for actually preparing his players for the next step. Guys like Carr, Bortles, Manziel were put in basic systems with reads being pre-determined. You're picking on pure upside, and this all depends on what skills and attributes are more valuable to whoever
You guys both made good points. I get where you're coming form Cheato, and that's why I like Carr more. I personally feel he's more physically gifted.
Moving on from that, all this "no franchise QB" talk by Cosell and that UCF coach is interesting. That was certainly the case last year, but I'm not so sure this year. I guess it depends on your definition of the term.
Moving on from that, all this "no franchise QB" talk by Cosell and that UCF coach is interesting. That was certainly the case last year, but I'm not so sure this year. I guess it depends on your definition of the term.
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A franchise QB to me, is just a starter who you can feasibly trust to be the main focus of your offense, and be successful. I think Bridgewater & Bortles can easily be that. Manziel, maybe to a lessor extent, I waver constantly on what I think of him. Already stated I'm just not a fan of Carr, and I haven't seen a lot of Mettenberg, but not on my radar as a Browns fan because I don't think they're going to wait on him to heal (don't know his return timetable though, so I could be off base).
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On a QB related note, I think Bridgewater's become really underrated. Idk how Bortles has jumped him. I feel like everyone is making too big of a deal over the frame and "lack of a wow characteristic." He's still easily the #1 QB for me at this point.
My definition is: can he win me a Superbowl?elcheato said:
I know that depends on the rest of the team too, but the way I look at it, if I'm in the Superbowl, is he good enough to go and win it for me if the running game and defense aren't playing that great. If the game is on his shoulders, can he do it. Now I'm not looking for him to win it every time, but if he is capable of doing that, and I'm confident in him in that situation, he's a franchise QB.
As for Mettenberger, apparently he's healing crazy fast:
NFL.com
It's funny, I'm starting to feel like the second tier of QB's are going to be better than the first tier in this draft. I could easily see 3 out of the 4 top tier guys busting, and maybe 3 of the second tier guys becoming real good starters. My final QB list is going to be ludicrous, guys.
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You're just a hipster.
Haha no no I just have serious concerns about some of these guys. Potential is a blinding attribute.
I just don't let the media affect my opinion. You never know what's a smoke screen or why they hype certain players.
I'm curious to see how you rank the QB's, Jake.
EDIT
Never really thought about it before, but I may in fact be a hipster. I don't have facebook, twitter, instagram, snapchat or any of that crap lol. But I'm not a hipster in the sense of big glasses and weird clothes lol.
EDIT 2
But Jake man, look at the 2011 draft for example. Blaine Gabbert and Christain Ponder were most people's #2 and #3 QB's. They didn't pan out. It never goes as the media thinks it will.
I just don't let the media affect my opinion. You never know what's a smoke screen or why they hype certain players.
I'm curious to see how you rank the QB's, Jake.
EDIT
Never really thought about it before, but I may in fact be a hipster. I don't have facebook, twitter, instagram, snapchat or any of that crap lol. But I'm not a hipster in the sense of big glasses and weird clothes lol.
EDIT 2
But Jake man, look at the 2011 draft for example. Blaine Gabbert and Christain Ponder were most people's #2 and #3 QB's. They didn't pan out. It never goes as the media thinks it will.