2014 NBA Re-Draft Discussion Thread

[CameronCrazy06]

Even if the numbers idea was practical, I think yours are off.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

At this point we should probably just move Mob to the end of each round until he checks in with me, agreed?

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Even if the numbers idea was practical, I think yours are off.

What would you say they should be?

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Kyrie is an 8.5 offensively at the MINIMUM. I honestly would say 9. He's a top ten offensive player in the league.

Conley is not a 9 defensively.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

sigh...

 

[buzzy]

Conley is not a 9 defensively.

It doesn't have to be if you're going by that dumb ranking system. You're basically saying Kyrie's D has to match Conley's O as well.

But I don't care for that either way

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Like I said nobody particularly likes it but that's the only way I can get my point across, but I've come to realize the people I'm debating with don't exactly have a horse that isn't running the race, if you know what I'm saying. I'll never get anywhere with it. They'll continue to take the top 10 offensive player who doesn't play a lick of defense over the guy who is a good offensive player and great defender because of where he went to school, who he plays with currently, and because he scores a lot of points (on a lot of shots) and gets on ESPN. Doesn't make sense to me personally but as long as a guy scores 20+ points people are more than willing to ignore what he doesn't do on the other end of the court, even if he doesn't make anyone around him better.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I still don't get how Conley is a NINE defensively? According to defensive metrics he took a huge step back in that regard this year. Plus he has the best perimeter defender in the league next to him, one of the best interior defenders in the league behind him, etc.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I still don't get how Conley is a NINE defensively? According to defensive metrics he took a huge step back in that regard this year. Plus he has the best perimeter defender in the league next to him, one of the best interior defenders in the league behind him, etc.

There is no defensive metric that can dictate individual defensive success, you have to actually watch the player.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

There is no defensive metric that can dictate individual defensive success, you have to actually watch the player.

That's true to an extent, but he took a step back in ALL of them. Clearly something is up.

Anyways, I think if you put Irving on the Grizzlies, his defense would look a lot better. Or at the minimum, it would be masked by the rest of their team

 

[jonathanlambert33]

For example...you can't judge Conleys excellent ability to be able to go under a screen and still recover to his man if he pulls up for a shot because of his lateral quickness, awareness, and length with defensive metrics. You can't judge his ability to play the passing lane over the top when he goes under, etc.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Conley's always been really good at forcing turnovers. He's a pest. I just don't buy him as an elite defender. A very good one, but not elite. Irving is an ELITE scorer.

And like I said, if you put Irving on the Grizzlies, his defense wouldn't look nearly as bad. Meanwhile, put Conley on the Cavs, and I don't think he'd have the efficient year he did.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

and you saw the numbers decrease because they played a different defensive system. Under Hollins they pressured the ball on the perimeter more and tried to keep it out of the paint, but under Joerger they tried to funnel the ball towards Gasol and Randolph more.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Irving isn't an elite scorer. You really need to stop with that. I understand you're a Duke fan but atleast be realistic. Call him a very good scorer if you want, but guys like Durant and Curry are elite scorers. Irving as of right now, isn't on their level. Maybe when he's 25 or something he will be but he isn't now. I mean just three examples, he shot sub 40% on isolations, shot sub 47% on PnR's, only 37% on spot ups. That's not elite scorer numbers.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I'll let you believe what you want. I firmly believe that Kyrie hasn't been put in a situation where a player can succeed. The roster around him was poor (tried to acquire a few pieces mid-season but didn't work out), Mike Brown is an awful coach, etc.

I'd say "you'll see a more efficient Kyrie next year", but with LeBron being there that's not even worth mentioning. Stupid LeBron

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I've had posts about why a lot of struggles fall on Kyrie's shoulders and why it's not right to put the majority of the blame on his coaches or teammates. He deserves at the very least half the blame, probably more. I'm not going to look up those posts, but me and cheato have had this conversation many many times. And guys like Luol Deng may not have worked out, but a lot of the Cavs players were better players with Kyrie off the floor because he hampers his teammates with his playing style.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Deng for example averaged 16.2 ppg on 46.2% when Kyrie did not play. With Kyrie he averaged 14.0 points on 40.9% shooting.

When Kyrie returned following the 16.2 ppg stretch Deng fell to 9.8 ppg on 38.1% shooting over his last four games.

If you want to look at their entire time together, with Kyrie on the court with him Deng shot 40.7%, scored 0.97 points per shot, and scored 14.8 points per 36. With Kyrie off the court he shot 45.2%, scored 1.1 points per shot, and scored 16.7 points per 36.

Who's fault is that? Does the coach get credit for Deng being better with Kyrie off the court? Jarrett Jack, Dion Waiters, CJ Miles, etc were all better as well. Basically every wing Cleveland had last season was better when Kyrie went sit on the bench. Using the logic of this board I would think they would be better with him on the court because he "takes pressure off others."

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Jarrett Jack and Dion Waiters both being better with Irving off the floor makes perfect sense though. They're all players that need the ball in their hands. Luol Deng never found his niche with the Cavs. I mentioned the other day that I don't think it's always fair to judge players who get traded midseason and play worse after. Does some of that fall on Kyrie? Sure. But I think it's more that the two just didn't have the time to develop the chemistry on the fly. Other blame can fall on the coaching for not using Deng right.

 

[Mobruler]

Fuck, I'm sorry guys.  I deserve Tony Parker.

 

[Mobruler]

Botched round 1 and got Tony Parker over guys I would have drafted over him like Griffin and Aldridge.  In round two, I think I doomed my team.  Needed to do well in the next few rounds, and was way too tempted to take DeRozan, and while I think he is excellent value at pick 32, he doesn't have the name quality I needed.