MVP Winners

[brett05]

Are you serious? You would put Goldy, Blackmon, and Arenado over the seasons Stanton and Votto had!? That’s crazy talk. Too many fans see through the “player” in Most Valuable Player and discredit guys who weren’t on playoff teams.

New to baseball are ya?  Sorry, I take that back.
 
No one dismisses Player in these awards, but to not understand what valuable means and most valuable is just not getting it.
 
I looked a bit deeper and Stanton fell off in Sept/Oct and had three months of sub 900 ops.  Goldy one, but man was his Sept/Oct awful.  I reconsider and put Nolan and Charlie 1/1a with Goldy third and stanton/votto 4th, and 5th  though I would probably take Bellinger over Votto.

 

[A.E]

New to baseball are ya?  Sorry, I take that back.
 
No one dismisses Player in these awards, but to not understand what valuable means and most valuable is just not getting it.
 
I looked a bit deeper and Stanton fell off in Sept/Oct and had three months of sub 900 ops.  Goldy one, but man was his Sept/Oct awful.  I reconsider and put Nolan and Charlie 1/1a with Goldy third and stanton/votto 4th, and 5th  though I would probably take Bellinger over Votto.

No; Im not new to baseball at all. As a matter of fact, Im so familiar with baseball that I understand the season is played outside of the months of September and October. I also understand more than OPS is to be considered when determining the leagues Most Valuable Player.

Its laughable youd take Bellinger over Votto.... not long after criticizing Stanton for going cold in one major category for about a month and half.

 

[brett05]

No; Im not new to baseball at all. As a matter of fact, Im so familiar with baseball that I understand the season is played outside of the months of September and October. I also understand more than OPS is to be considered when determining the leagues Most Valuable Player.

Its laughable youd take Bellinger over Votto.... not long after criticizing Stanton for going cold in one major category for about a month and half.

so you have no clue what the Dodgers did with CB in the lineup vs out of the lineup?

 

[A.E]

so you have no clue what the Dodgers did with CB in the lineup vs out of the lineup?

I have a clue the MVP award isn’t about teammates. Bringing teammates into the equation only strengthens Votto’s case. He plays in the weakest lineup and still outperformed nearly the entire league at the plate.

 

[CoachAF]

Taking Bellinger over Votto is ridiculous. Look at the statline for each and Votto is head and shoulders above Bellinger. Each had similar value to their team in terms of impact on the overall line-up. The Reds would have no offense without Votto, and the Dodgers couldnt win a post-season series until a Bellinger appeared. I think the Dodgers record w-w/o Bellinger is a moot point. The Reds would have been the same without Votto. Just looking at the stats, Bellinger isn't even in the same tier as Votto. 
 
Votto: 7.5 WAR, 106 R, .320 BA, 36 HR, 100 RBI, 5 SB, .454 OBP, .578 SLG, 1.032 OPS, 168 OPS+
Bellinger: 4.2 WAR, 87 R, .267 BA, 39 HR, 97 RBI, 10 SB, .352 OBP, .581 SLG, .933 OPS, 142 OPS+
 
The categories that Bellinger does win, he barely does so. All that power he has comes at the expense of striking out. Votto struck out 83 times and Bellinger k'd 146 times in 80 less AB's...
 
Anybody who had Bellinger over Votto on their voting card either resides in LA or needs to turn in their card. 

 

[brett05]

I have a clue the MVP award isn’t about teammates. Bringing teammates into the equation only strengthens Votto’s case. He plays in the weakest lineup and still outperformed nearly the entire league at the plate.

Votto in the lineup and out of the lineup is still dead last for the Reds.  His value was no where near the MOST

 

[brett05]

Taking Bellinger over Votto is ridiculous. Look at the statline for each and Votto is head and shoulders above Bellinger. Each had similar value to their team in terms of impact on the overall line-up. The Reds would have no offense without Votto, and the Dodgers couldnt win a post-season series until a Bellinger appeared. I think the Dodgers record w-w/o Bellinger is a moot point. The Reds would have been the same without Votto. Just looking at the stats, Bellinger isn't even in the same tier as Votto. 
 
Votto: 7.5 WAR, 106 R, .320 BA, 36 HR, 100 RBI, 5 SB, .454 OBP, .578 SLG, 1.032 OPS, 168 OPS+
Bellinger: 4.2 WAR, 87 R, .267 BA, 39 HR, 97 RBI, 10 SB, .352 OBP, .581 SLG, .933 OPS, 142 OPS+
 
The categories that Bellinger does win, he barely does so. All that power he has comes at the expense of striking out. Votto struck out 83 times and Bellinger k'd 146 times in 80 less AB's...
 
Anybody who had Bellinger over Votto on their voting card either resides in LA or needs to turn in their card. 

Clearly you are someone who thinks that MVP is best overall hitter.  That's not what the MVP is.

 

[CoachAF]

Clearly you are someone who thinks that MVP is best overall hitter.  That's not what the MVP is.

 
A quick trip to the BBWAA website would show that there is no set definition of what constitutes the MVP. The definition is left up to those who vote. So for you to declare me wrong and you right is a waste of time. The truth lies somewhere in between the two arguments. It changes from one voter to the next. 
 
Here's some good quotes from an old ESPN article on the topic:
 

 
 
Historically, voters place a huge importance on playing for a team that reaches the postseason, yet the BBWAA states on the ballot "the MVP candidate need not come from a playoff contending team."

 

 
 
But, the beautiful part of baseball is every year any player has a chance to shine, a chance to rise above their true talent level and add valuable wins to their team. This is what the MVP award measures.

 
Personally, I like the final defining question: 

 
 
but ultimately, the MVP should answer the question, which ballplayer had a season we should never forget?

 
This leaves room for the argument that someone who's team didnt make the playoffs can still win the award based off what they did that season. I think this lends credence to Stanton's victory b/c his HR show in the second half was very memorable. Also, it gives Votto a chance b/c of how amazing he was on a team full of nobodies. Bellinger has a case too with how impressive he was as a rookie. So once you use that question to narrow it down to a few players, go look at the stats and how their value can be measured statistically. 

 

[A.E]

Good arguments Coach. 
 
Votto is arguably the most well-rounded hitter in the game today and nobody outside of my region gives a shit. I get it, the Reds are bad, but as I've said time and time again, you cannot judge an MVP based on how their teammates perform. 

 

[brett05]

I agree with those first two quotes, the last is dumb.  No one remembers Votto.  No one watched the Reds. 
 
Discounting how a team performs is dumb unless there are no clear performers for guys that helped a team.
 
Sorry, you folks picking best player for the award is wrong.  As it is for he folks that actually vote.

 

[PWNdroia]

Votto in the lineup and out of the lineup is still dead last for the Reds.  His value was no where near the MOST

Kind of like Paul Molitor.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I agree with those first two quotes, the last is dumb.  No one remembers Votto.  No one watched the Reds. 
 
Discounting how a team performs is dumb unless there are no clear performers for guys that helped a team.
 
Sorry, you folks picking best player for the award is wrong.  As it is for he folks that actually vote.

Its fine if Votto isnt your mvp, but saying Bellinger should be ahead of him is so idiotic

 

[brett05]

Kind of like Paul Molitor.

They made the playoffs with Paul

 

[brett05]

Its fine if Votto isnt your mvp, but saying Bellinger should be ahead of him is so idiotic

Again, his value to the Dodgers is so much greater than Votto to the Reds.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

You dont understand baseball. Its okay.

 

[Pugz]

this thread is great

 

[PWNdroia]

They made the playoffs with Paul

My point is that Paul Molitor as the manager of the Twins doesn't change their record or late season success.  I'm using a similar analogy.

 

[A.E]

Apparently a league (not World Series) Most Valuable Player must do the job of 25 men and personally lead his team into the playoffs. That's at least according to brett05. 
 
Because it's not like the Dodgers were a series win away from the World Series before Bellinger was in the big leagues or anything...

 

[catman]

Some people forget that Andre Dawson was the MVP for a last-place Cubs team in 1987.  He had a season for the ages with very little help around him.

 

[CoachAF]

Some people forget that Andre Dawson was the MVP for a last-place Cubs team in 1987.  He had a season for the ages with very little help around him.

 
There's a Cubs documentary I watched that highlighted that season. Amazing. I had no problem with Stanton, and I liked Votto as a possibility as well. Anthony Rendon surprisingly hasn't been brought up yet, and he was a big reason the Nats did as well as they did this year (With Harper's injury and all). The NL was muddled with the MVP b/c nobody had a clearly better year than anyone else (one of those seasons for the ages). The AL had 2 clear front-runners who obviously contributed to their team's success. I think Judge wins MVP outright next season, and a couple more after that he is that good. Of course he will have a healthy Trout to contend with (and the current MVP )