Golden Tate signs with Lions

[TTN2810]

I understand the points you're making, and I agree about Tate being overrated but you can't just look at it in a dollar amount like that. A 2nd round pick is very valuable. You're paying the price of that contract AND the 45th pick. Now they can look else where with the pick.

As far as I'm concerned, at 45 to get a WR of that caliber is a steal in itself. Half those guys in any other year would be 1st rounders.
 
In another view, if they didn't sign Tate, they could have spend $31 million on a differentl need that the draft isn't filled with talent at.

 

[elcheato]

Yes, they could have, but apparently they viewed Tate differently than you and I.

 

[TTN2810]

Not even just this, but there has been a lot of head-scratchingly bad signings this FA, Titans included. The Tate, Steve Smith, Charlie Whitehurst, Michael Oher, and Cortland Finnegan deals just to name a few are turrible.

 

[elcheato]

How much did Steve Smith get?

 

[TTN2810]

3 years, $11.5 million, $3.5 million bonus.
 
The guy was done even last year. Totally lost his speed. Should have gotten a 1 year deal at the most, 3 years is ridiculous. He's got nothing left. Not to mention almost $4 mill a year?!
 
Plus add on his character issues.. this signing was a disaster.

 

[Mobruler]

Bad signing. Over paid for an overrated WR. They could easily get a much better WR in the second round for a fraction of the money. 45th pick last year got a 4 year $4.4 million deal, compared to this 5 year $31 million.
 
Would much rather have a Allen Robinson, Davante Adams, Jordan Matthews, Paul Richardson, Jarvis Landry, or Martavis Bryant at 45 than Tate, who couldn't even be a #1 WR on the Seahawks. All of those guys have diverse talent and the Lions could have picked any skill set they wanted, really.
 
This is going to look like a good signing even during the year because anyone mildly talented could play opposite CJ and put up some stats in that offense. I'd rather not take that money away from somewhere else on the roster when a cheaper, better option is available. 
 
EDIT
Not to mention, all of those guys I listed have #1 WR potential, too. When the rookie 4 year deal is done, Calvin will be 32 shortly after the start of the next season. They'll be in need of a #1, and that guy could be groomed to be that. 

 
No offense, but I find this to be asinine.  The idea that they could have filed that role just as easily by drafting a WR with their 2nd round pick is an idea that comes straight from outer space.  Go look at the Lions' recent history of drafting WRs, I dare you.  Or their record of even drafting anyone.
 
I'm really happy they tried to build on the offense in free agency and will try to build on defense in the draft.  Seems like the right way to do it to me.
 
I'm also a little confused about your opinion of Tate being "overrated".  Typically when a player is overrated, he has produced gaudy numbers that don't necessarily reflect his talent level.  
 
Tate is the opposite.  Tate's numbers leave people a little light in the pants.  It's reasonable to think that a WR who plays with a QB who never attempts more than 25 passes in a game could take a hit in his numbers.
 
Tate has been one of the best hands receivers in the NFL and brings good YAC.  I'm happy about the signing.

 

[WHO-DEY-BENGALS_18]

Still think Edelman would be a nice addition for a WR needy team. The Patriots better not get him back for cheap. 
 
Tate will be good for the Lions, I truly believe that. I also truly believe they better draft a CB in the first round. If Gilbert is there at #10, you gotta take him.. If he's not, well, then things just got a lot more interesting. 

 

[TTN2810]

 
No offense, but I find this to be asinine.  The idea that they could have filed that role just as easily by drafting a WR with their 2nd round pick is an idea that comes straight from outer space.  Go look at the Lions' recent history of drafting WRs, I dare you.  Or their record of even drafting anyone.
 
I'm really happy they tried to build on the offense in free agency and will try to build on defense in the draft.  Seems like the right way to do it to me.
 
I'm also a little confused about your opinion of Tate being "overrated".  Typically when a player is overrated, he has produced gaudy numbers that don't necessarily reflect his talent level.  
 
Tate is the opposite.  Tate's numbers leave people a little light in the pants.  It's reasonable to think that a WR who plays with a QB who never attempts more than 25 passes in a game could take a hit in his numbers.
 
Tate has been one of the best hands receivers in the NFL and brings good YAC.  I'm happy about the signing.

Oh, gosh, I don't know where to start.
 
First off, what does any other year's WR classes have to do with this one? Nothing. Even so, the Lions' haven't been bad WR drafters since Mayhew took over. He's only taken two WRw in the first two rounds since 2009: Titus Young and Ryan Broyles. Young was incredibly talented, but they took a chance on his attitude and got burned. Not a talent evaluation error. With Broyles they took a shot that he could come back from his ACL, and clearly he didn't. Again, not an evaluation error. Furthermore, this WR draft class isn't like the others: it doesn't really matter who you take. You aren't digging to find the gold, it's there for the taking. It's asinine, as you would say, to overlook how talented this WR class is, especially in comparison to the FA WR's. There's no need to over pay to get a #2 WR, there's plenty in the draft.
 
Offense in FA, defense in draft. Is this some sort of formula for success? Never heard of it. Has no relevance.
 
Overrated means the perception of how good he is, is inflated. $31 million is way too much for a WR who has never had more than 65 catches or 900 yards in a season. Yes, I agree with you, Tate leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not sure where you're getting this "took a hit in the numbers" nonsense. His numbers were never good to begin with. And please don't act like the Seahawk offense only hurt him. With Lynch, those WR's faced defenses with safeties in the box, and with Russell Wilson scrambling around for 10 seconds, big plays are bound to happen. No one can cover for 10 seconds, and those WR's took big time advantage of that. If he was as good as you say he is, Wilson would have looked to Tate to make a lot more plays than he did. He spread the ball around for a reason: he had to. He didn't have anyone who could go out and make a play for him on a consistent basis, Tate included. They also wouldn't have had to go out and get Percy Harvin, yet they felt the need to.
 
How many times can you list a FA WR who has gotten a big contract with a worse team than he came from and succeeded? I can list a whole bunch that flopped: Mike Wallace, Mario Manningham, Laurent Robinson, Sidney Rice, Mike Sims-Walker etc. FA WR's have always been payed to much and teams get burned. Tate is no different. 
 
As I said, however, I fully expect Tate to put up some big numbers this year. But again, anyone with any talent at all could, and I would much rather pay a more talented draft choice $1 million a year rather than Tate $6 million. That's easy money that could be applied else where. These kind of WR drafts don't come around often, you need to take advantage of it and bolster your team in other areas in FA. 
 
This was absolutely a bad move. Maybe not on the surface or to the average fan, though.

 

[TTN2810]

Still think Edelman would be a nice addition for a WR needy team. The Patriots better not get him back for cheap. 
 
Tate will be good for the Lions, I truly believe that. I also truly believe they better draft a CB in the first round. If Gilbert is there at #10, you gotta take him.. If he's not, well, then things just got a lot more interesting. 

If you could get Edelman on a 3 year $8.5-$9 million deal, sure. If you have to pay anything more or sign him longer, I'll say it again, go to the draft. A lot of good slot guys in this draft, on top of the conventional #1 guys.

 

[Mobruler]

You want me to read all that shit?

 

[WHO-DEY-BENGALS_18]

So why hasn't an NFL team hired TiTAN yet for a scouting position?

 

[TTN2810]

You want me to read all that shit?

I thought I was having an intelligent debate with someone. I guess not.
 
This is why I love talking good football with Cheato, Bosox and Jake. Sure, we may disagree a lot, but I respect what they have to say, and I hope/think they return that, so we can all debate without getting butthurt. I've never, nor have they to me or anyone else, refused to read what anyone has to say. 
 
Don't play that card, dude. It's not a good look, and I'm sure you read it. That post would take, what, 2-3 minutes to read, tops. That's such a classic reply. If you can come up with an intelligent reply, I'll gladly read it, no matter the length man, as long as it's not all "I think____" without any real substance.
 

So why hasn't an NFL team hired TiTAN yet for a scouting position?

C'mon Dustin, no need for this, man. Am I not allowed to post my informed opinions? I've never said, implied, or even thought anything like that, nor do I hold myself above anyone else. 

 

[TTN2810]

Also Dustin, it looks like the Pats are gonna get him back. Apparently they're "working on a new deal" No word on how much they are offering though.
 
He already turned down a 3 year contract from them so I think he thinks he's worth more than teams are offering. Playing out the 3 year contract he declined would leave him at 31 years old. Wouldn't want him longer than that so I see why the Pats offered him that.

 

[WHO-DEY-BENGALS_18]

I thought I was having an intelligent debate with someone. I guess not.
 
This is why I love talking good football with Cheato, Bosox and Jake. Sure, we may disagree a lot, but I respect what they have to say, and I hope/think they return that, so we can all debate without getting butthurt. I've never, nor have they to me or anyone else, refused to read what anyone has to say. 
 
Don't play that card, dude. It's not a good look, and I'm sure you read it. That post would take, what, 2-3 minutes to read, tops. That's such a classic reply. If you can come up with an intelligent reply, I'll gladly read it, no matter the length man, as long as it's not all "I think____" without any real substance.
 
C'mon Dustin, no need for this, man. Am I not allowed to post my informed opinions? I've never said, implied, or even thought anything like that, nor do I hold myself above anyone else. 

 
I didn't mean it that way. All I meant by it was you study this stuff and know way more then I can comprehend. I do not put enough into the draft to know the stuff you do. Was just trying to be funny more then anything. Did not intend to disrespect you in any way so if you took it that way I do apologize. 

 

[TTN2810]

 
I didn't mean it that way. All I meant by it was you study this stuff and know way more then I can comprehend. I do not put enough into the draft to know the stuff you do. Was just trying to be funny more then anything. Did not intend to disrespect you in any way so if you took it that way I do apologize. 

Oh my bad, sorry dude! I've got a bad joke detector I guess haha. I should have known, you're the most polite guy around here!
 
I know I can get into some good debates around here and some can kind of get heated, but I really don't want to be putting any bad vibes out there that I don't listen, respect other posters, or especially look down on anyone or think better of myself (and I take that seriously), because I absolutely love reading other poster's well put together arguments and perspectives. If I'm debating it's because it's what I love to talk about and feel strongly about it, but I'm always all for having my mind changed. I'm open to it if a good argument is made. So again if anyone gets a bad vibe from me, know I'm just passionate about what I'm debating and I don't mean to challenge you personally. That's the last thing I'm intending. 

 

[WHO-DEY-BENGALS_18]

Oh my bad, sorry dude! I've got a bad joke detector I guess haha. I should have known, you're the most polite guy around here!

 
I've always respected your opinion and your very insightful posts so continue doing what you do, I learn something new every time. This forum could use some more people such as yourself, along with a few others that I try to stay away from getting in a debate with.

 

[Mobruler]

Oh, gosh, I don't know where to start.
 
First off, what does any other year's WR classes have to do with this one? Nothing. Even so, the Lions' haven't been bad WR drafters since Mayhew took over. He's only taken two WRw in the first two rounds since 2009: Titus Young and Ryan Broyles. Young was incredibly talented, but they took a chance on his attitude and got burned. Not a talent evaluation error. With Broyles they took a shot that he could come back from his ACL, and clearly he didn't. Again, not an evaluation error. Furthermore, this WR draft class isn't like the others: it doesn't really matter who you take. You aren't digging to find the gold, it's there for the taking. It's asinine, as you would say, to overlook how talented this WR class is, especially in comparison to the FA WR's. There's no need to over pay to get a #2 WR, there's plenty in the draft.
 
Offense in FA, defense in draft. Is this some sort of formula for success? Never heard of it. Has no relevance.
 
Overrated means the perception of how good he is, is inflated. $31 million is way too much for a WR who has never had more than 65 catches or 900 yards in a season. Yes, I agree with you, Tate leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not sure where you're getting this "took a hit in the numbers" nonsense. His numbers were never good to begin with. And please don't act like the Seahawk offense only hurt him. With Lynch, those WR's faced defenses with safeties in the box, and with Russell Wilson scrambling around for 10 seconds, big plays are bound to happen. No one can cover for 10 seconds, and those WR's took big time advantage of that. If he was as good as you say he is, Wilson would have looked to Tate to make a lot more plays than he did. He spread the ball around for a reason: he had to. He didn't have anyone who could go out and make a play for him on a consistent basis, Tate included. They also wouldn't have had to go out and get Percy Harvin, yet they felt the need to.
 
How many times can you list a FA WR who has gotten a big contract with a worse team than he came from and succeeded? I can list a whole bunch that flopped: Mike Wallace, Mario Manningham, Laurent Robinson, Sidney Rice, Mike Sims-Walker etc. FA WR's have always been payed to much and teams get burned. Tate is no different. 
 
As I said, however, I fully expect Tate to put up some big numbers this year. But again, anyone with any talent at all could, and I would much rather pay a more talented draft choice $1 million a year rather than Tate $6 million. That's easy money that could be applied else where. These kind of WR drafts don't come around often, you need to take advantage of it and bolster your team in other areas in FA. 
 
This was absolutely a bad move. Maybe not on the surface or to the average fan, though.

 
My bad man, too much to drink last night.
 
I don't trust the Lions to draft anyone in the 2nd round.  They are unsuccessful every single time.  Injury issues with Broyles and character issues with Young were well known issues in those drafts.  They were the biggest detriments to those players' draft value on draft day.  The Lions still took those players and even though the failure of those players may not have been strictly for talent reasons, it's still about the overall evaluation of the player.  One way or another, they failed to draft players that could be successful.
 
As far as this WR class being so good that the Lions can just take anyone in the 2nd and be successful with the pick, I don't know, I'm just not buying into that.  But even so, they might still draft WR in the 2nd (or God forbid the 1st), because they are still very thin at the position.  It might be in their plans to try to draft someone they think can be better than Tate and play Tate in the slot.
 
The reason I like offensive additions in free agency and defensive additions in the draft is because rookies are blank slates that you can mold into someone that takes on the image of your team much more intimately than what you can do with a free agent.  A drafted player grows into your defensive scheme, completely buys into your defensively scheme, and has nothing else to compare to your defensive scheme.  I don't have any type of proof, but it SEEMS to me that offensive players have a higher rate of success after leaving the team that drafted them than defensive players do.
 
Offensive skill position players are naturally a little easier to evaluate because they have more clarifying stats.  But with offensive skill position rookies, there is still a mysterious question of "can they produce at the NFL level" that is unanswered.  That question is answered already with free agents.
 
As far as Tate, I think his numbers have been lower than what they could be because he just hasn't had as many opportunities to build stats as other players you would compare him to have.  It's not a Russell Wilson not looking to him enough thing, it's a Russell Wilson not looking at anyone enough thing.  How many games did Wilson even attempt more than 25 passes?  I think it's like three or four.  And that's fine, it's not a knock on Wilson, it's just Seattle's offensive philosophy.  
 
I also disagree with Seattle wanting to add Percy Harvin as being some kind of thing that degrades Tate.  To be a good team obviously requires multiple play makers at that position, and who wouldn't want Harvin?
 
I think Tate has the attributes that suggest he can be a very productive player.  It's the excellent hands (even though I think that has been a little blown out of proportion), the YAC ability, and the athleticism that comes with a player who is also capable of returning punts.  He's efficient at catching the football and he's efficient in the open field.  I'm in.  Those are two things the Lions have been severely lacking in.
 
They did pay him quite a bit.  It's not like they had a choice though.  You have to pay a Detroit tax to get a player to want to come live here and play for this organization, especially when you are asking them to leave a Super Bowl winning team.  You also have to pay an age tax when you are trying to add a player who is only 25.

 

[TTN2810]

Fair enough about Broyles and Young. As for this draft though, just to demonstrate the deep class, CBS's draft site has 18 WR's with a 3rd round grade. That's insane.  And I would personally argue that 13-14 of those guys have legit #1 WR potential. That's enough for almost half the league. It's like taking candy from a baby. it's there for the taking.
 
Agreed it's tough to forecast rookie production, but I think the same can be said about Tate; he has to be able to prove he can be a big time weapon too. In this scenario, I'd rather go with the younger, cheaper guy. If it doesn't work out, you didn't shell out a huge sum of money, and if you go the rookie route, there is no Detroit tax