Boston & Milwaukee Have Discussed Deal for #3 and Middleton

[jonathanlambert33]

And the lack of athletic gifts isn't even Okafors biggest hurdle in becoming a adequate defender.

 

[buzzy]

I don't think the Celtics would pass up on Jah at 3 this year. At the same time they probably wouldn't trade the pick for him because everybody values picks so much more than players.

Also taking Kyrie as an example again, you saw how valuable a reliable scorer is in this league. Defensive positioning and can be taught, but you have to have a special talent to be an elite scorer. So I wouldn't call Okafor as useless as some people here because he's a bad defender right now.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

There's a huge difference between being a poor defender as a guard and a poor defender as a big. You can get by with having the guard, the bigs though are a completely different story.

 

[Pugz]

I've said it before, but I think you'd have to go to Utah and offer up a guy like Anthony Davis to pry Hayward from them. That guy probably means more to them off the court than on, and he means a lot to them on the court.

yea i think that too and im a bug fan of his. love his game.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Someone with the lateral quickness and size that Kyrie has should be able to be a good defender. He isn't limited athletically like Okafor

There are plenty of examples of big men who aren't great athletes that are great defenders.

Regardless, I wouldn't say he's limited athletically. He's very quick for his size

 

[jonathanlambert33]

And everyone of those guys are exceptionally gifted in areas that Okafor is not and will never be.

 

[Mexi]

I've said it before, but I think you'd have to go to Utah and offer up a guy like Anthony Davis to pry Hayward from them. That guy probably means more to them off the court than on, and he means a lot to them on the court.

i guess we'll see next summer

 

[bosoxlover12]

And bosox obviously your love for Brown is well documented, but I've been curious, does he scare you?

Absolutely he scares me. His shooting numbers at Cal are Rondo-esque, and teams would be smart to play off of him if he can't hit shots (think of Iman Shunpert in these past Finals). But in my mind, it's really only his shooting that scares me.

Jamal Murray was a great shooter in college, but almost all the tape I've seen of him shows poor defensive technique and the offensive player goes past him really easily. There have been countless of examples of good college shooters who just make everything, and just don't in the NBA. That, with his lower shot release, scares me a bit.

Dragan Bender could be literally out of the league in 3 years if his game doesn't develop. It's not like he's a prolific scorer; if his shot doesn't work in the NBA (seems like a tad too bit early of a release) he then has zero offensive game basically, and is a major bust. By far the biggest bust potential

Hield isn't quick enough to play PG, and isn't long enough to play SF. That alone, pidgenholing him to a single position where he'd be undersized is a red flag. He also shows a ton of defensive weakness, where he won't be able to contest shots all too well, and I'm not sure his quick enough to stay with his man either. I trust his shooting more than Jamal's, but at the same time I saw a lot of clips of him forcing really bad shots, thinking he was 2006 Kobe when he was closer to 2014 Kobe on those looks. He has the same over-confidence issue that Smart seems to be developing as a catch-and-shoot player, where they are taking the shots even in non-ideal situations (note: I am not comparing Smart's shooting ability to Hields, but rather the shot selection and decision making)

Chriss I want nothing with. He posted horrendous rebounding numbers for a PF, and that's arguably the biggest thing you want from a PF. I'll take him at 8 if we just move other picks for him but I don't want to lose good assets for Marquese Chriss.

Kris Dunn is definitely the safest player to draft, but I just really don't like his fit in Boston. He's refusing to work out with us, and Boston is a team driven on team unity and teamwork. We're not overly talented but everyone works together as one large unit, which is why Rondo and Jeff Green didn't work out in Boston. I don't like his attitude off the court, and I don't like the fact that he wants to be a star PG and would force Isaiah off-ball where he is far less effective. He's the 3rd most talented but just not a good fit



So why do I like Jaylen? I'm someone who values defense a lot more than offense. It's hard to lose defensive ability but it's not hard to lose shooting touch. Brown shows the signs that he'll be able to play good NBA defense, and I don't see that being an assurance from Hield or Murray. If their scoring ability doesn't translate (didn't for a lot of talented college players like Morrison, McDermott, McLemore just off the top of my head) then I see them almost as unplayable (same reason RJ Hunter gets no minutes). But Brown, even with poor shooting would still provide his contributions as a defender and rebounder. To me, I like his floor a lot more than the rest

 

[bosoxlover12]

I don't think the Celtics would pass up on Jah at 3 this year. At the same time they probably wouldn't trade the pick for him because everybody values picks so much more than players.
 

I mean we technically did pass on him this year
 
 
Sixers really want Kris Dunn. It's hardly a secret, and I predicted this come Draft Lottery Day (I suggested #3 for 2017 LA 1st+ Boston option to switch 2017 BKN and 2017 PHI). The Sixers called Boston asking for Okafor for the 3rd pick and they declined. Boston countered with Noel instead of Okafor, and Philly declined.
 
Personally, I don't see why Noel over Jahlil when Noel on a max contract next year (RFA) is at $28M annually and that's fucking scary for someone with such limited offensive upside. But Jahlil is unplayable against mobile centers, and would be awful defensively against any capable shooting center in the P&R/P&P. He's a great scoring big man -- almost underrated in that aspect, and is a great passer too. I really like Jahlil a lot. But at the same time, I think his role should be exactly what Enes Kanter's is for OKC, as a star 6th man but nothing more. 

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Like I said, making that harsh an assumption on any player at 20, let alone one as gifted as Okafor, is idiotic

 

[bosoxlover12]

I would do Okafor and RoCo for #3 and a filler (Hunter or Young) but I actually like the prospects at #3 to not just do the pick for Jahlil alone. They aren't as talented but they fit the system better.
 
 
Also, can you give an example of a big man who was thought to be a poor defender, but ended up being a solid defender in the long run? Like Nola said, its easier for someone like Kyrie who is crazy quick to learn to stay infront of his man, but its a different story for a slower bigman to learn how to effectively guard the Pick and Roll. Sullinger was awful at it and Okafor just seems like a thinner, actually having a post game version of Sullinger, and I'm not sure you give up assets for that.

 

[bosoxlover12]

Although I'm hearing Boston is trying to leverage in Embiid with Okafor for the 3rd, and that's the hold-up.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Absolutely he scares me. His shooting numbers at Cal are Rondo-esque, and teams would be smart to play off of him if he can't hit shots (think of Iman Shunpert in these past Finals). But in my mind, it's really only his shooting that scares me.

Jamal Murray was a great shooter in college, but almost all the tape I've seen of him shows poor defensive technique and the offensive player goes past him really easily. There have been countless of examples of good college shooters who just make everything, and just don't in the NBA. That, with his lower shot release, scares me a bit.

Dragan Bender could be literally out of the league in 3 years if his game doesn't develop. It's not like he's a prolific scorer; if his shot doesn't work in the NBA (seems like a tad too bit early of a release) he then has zero offensive game basically, and is a major bust. By far the biggest bust potential

Hield isn't quick enough to play PG, and isn't long enough to play SF. That alone, pidgenholing him to a single position where he'd be undersized is a red flag. He also shows a ton of defensive weakness, where he won't be able to contest shots all too well, and I'm not sure his quick enough to stay with his man either. I trust his shooting more than Jamal's, but at the same time I saw a lot of clips of him forcing really bad shots, thinking he was 2006 Kobe when he was closer to 2014 Kobe on those looks. He has the same over-confidence issue that Smart seems to be developing as a catch-and-shoot player, where they are taking the shots even in non-ideal situations (note: I am not comparing Smart's shooting ability to Hields, but rather the shot selection and decision making)

Chriss I want nothing with. He posted horrendous rebounding numbers for a PF, and that's arguably the biggest thing you want from a PF. I'll take him at 8 if we just move other picks for him but I don't want to lose good assets for Marquese Chriss.

Kris Dunn is definitely the safest player to draft, but I just really don't like his fit in Boston. He's refusing to work out with us, and Boston is a team driven on team unity and teamwork. We're not overly talented but everyone works together as one large unit, which is why Rondo and Jeff Green didn't work out in Boston. I don't like his attitude off the court, and I don't like the fact that he wants to be a star PG and would force Isaiah off-ball where he is far less effective. He's the 3rd most talented but just not a good fit



So why do I like Jaylen? I'm someone who values defense a lot more than offense. It's hard to lose defensive ability but it's not hard to lose shooting touch. Brown shows the signs that he'll be able to play good NBA defense, and I don't see that being an assurance from Hield or Murray. If their scoring ability doesn't translate (didn't for a lot of talented college players like Morrison, McDermott, McLemore just off the top of my head) then I see them almost as unplayable (same reason RJ Hunter gets no minutes). But Brown, even with poor shooting would still provide his contributions as a defender and rebounder. To me, I like his floor a lot more than the rest

I think you're ignoring some pretty big weaknesses he has as a player if his shooting is the only thing that scares you. I think there are things he's missing, atleast right now, that outweigh the importance of if a guy can shoot the basketball or not.

I've talked in the past about Murray defensively, thankfully what he lacks is coachable and what he already has are things that are much less coachable. I don't think he will ever be a good defender, but I would be very surprised if never became a passable defender. Maybe not even average, but not a guy you struggle to play because he can't defend. But even then, the guys offensive potential as a scorer, shooter, and distributor is as high as anyone in this class. I've compared his skill set to Damian Lillard, would you pass on Lillard because he isn't a great defender? I hear how people worry about his athleticism, but he tested better athletically than a guy like CJ McCollum, who averaged 21 a night on an efficient 54% true shooting percentage. Murray is also bigger and longer.

Hields ability to only play one position and not bring anything to the table other than scoring is the reason I have him behind Murray and Dunn, but I wouldn't say he is undersized, his 6'9.25" wingspan is impressive for a SG. I would also say I'm more worried about his shooting translating than Murrays, btw.

I just don't really see where you're making sense of Browns defense. He's not a good defender. He's that NFL guy that looks the part but his play doesn't hold any substance. Brown is lazy defensively, displays poor awareness and poor understanding of defensive fundamentals and concepts, meaning he lacks basketball IQ. You think he shows the signs because he's got the size and can run fast and jump high, but he's missing a lot of the components that make up a really good defender. And a lot of them really aren't coachable.

I don't think you can compare Murray and Hield to the guys you listed at all, two of them are severely lacking in athletic department and skills that go with being a good scorer in the NBA, and the other wasn't really all that good to begin with. Neither Hield or Murray have that problem.