4th Annual SI Player Rankings: #4 SG

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

Because Tyreke Evans is no Monta Ellis. I don't even know why Tyreke is involved

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Do you have an actual contribution, or no?

 

[Mobruler]

You know what, let me try it this way. Why is Ellis on a different level than Tyreke?

 
One guy has a long track record, seven seasons of 19.0 ppg or higher and a career .455 FG%
 
The other guy has a five season track record, has been steadily falling off of the face of a cliff since his only 19.0+ ppg season as a rookie, and looks like a completely lost cause.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

One guy has a long track record, seven seasons of 19.0 ppg or higher and a career .455 FG%
 
The other guy has a five season track record, has been steadily falling off of the face of a cliff since his only 19.0+ ppg season as a rookie, and looks like a completely lost cause.

You see, none of that regarding Tyreke is true. It's why I stress research and not just looking at raw stats.

I'm not sure why track record matters either, this isn't a life time award.

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

Let's see his SG rank, 5th in points. Had one of the better shooting percentages of his career this season at 45%. Third in APG, most assists in total. SECOND in steals. Only guy on this list next to Wesley to play ALL 82 games.

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

Also where the fuck is DeMar DeRozan here? Easily 2nd can be argued for first

 

[Mobruler]

You see, none of that regarding Tyreke is true. It's why I stress research and not just looking at raw stats.

I'm not sure why track record matters either, this isn't a life time award.

 
Come on man, Ellis is clearly an established veteran with a long track record of production and Evans is not that at all.  Why are you choosing to fight this battle.

 

[Mobruler]

I feel dumb that I'm on the same side of an argument as TPS, so I quit.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Come on man, Ellis is clearly an established veteran with a long track record of production and Evans is not that at all.  Why are you choosing to fight this battle.

Because I do my research and trust in what I see and read. I'm not blinded by raw stats. They are very similar in their overall impact of the game, especially when you consider the difference of defensive impact on and off the ball.

I always say, maybe Monta accounts for 32 points a game, and Tyreke only accounts for 26. But if Monta is giving up 28 points a game and Tyreke is allowing 22, does that make Monta better because you can't judge a players defensive impact based on the box score you read?

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

DELETED BY ADMINISTRATOR.

 

[jonathanlambert33]

Also where the fuck is DeMar DeRozan here? Easily 2nd can be argued for first

Played the majority of his minutes at SF.

 

[Mobruler]

Because I do my research and trust in what I see and read. I'm not blinded by raw stats. They are very similar in their overall impact of the game, especially when you consider the difference of defensive impact on and off the ball.

I always say, maybe Monta accounts for 32 points a game, and Tyreke only accounts for 26. But if Monta is giving up 28 points a game and Tyreke is allowing 22, does that make Monta better because you can't judge a players defensive impact based on the box score you read?

 
We both know the defensive discrepancy is not that and it would have to be quite a discrepancy since Ellis is a vastly more efficient scorer.  Tyreke Evans is not Michael Curry.  And raw stats... you win the game by putting the ball through the rim. 

 

[jonathanlambert33]

 
We both know the defensive discrepancy is not that and it would have to be quite a discrepancy since Ellis is a vastly more efficient scorer.  Tyreke Evans is not Michael Curry.  And raw stats... you win the game by putting the ball through the rim. 

 
Just random numbers I made up lol, not anything official.  But yes, Tyreke is a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than Ellis.  We're talking about a guy that allows more than a half a point per more per defensive play per possession.  0.814 points per possession for Ellis to 0.756 points per possession for Tyreke to be exact.  Tyreke also fouled shooters significantly less (4.8% to 7.3%), and this is on ball and off ball.  The difference in their defense on the ball is even greater.
 
And yes, you win the game by putting the ball through the rim.  But there is so much more meaningful things to qualify exactly how effective you are at putting the ball in the rim.  I mean just throw Monta and Reke out of this.  Does one player having more possessions, more shots, more opportunities to score the ball now make him better than someone else?  Even if that player who put the ball through the rim more is less efficient at doing it?  Are we now penalizing players for playing in a halfcourt offense as opposed to an offense that pushes the ball in the open court?  The possibilities are endless.

 

[Thomas-Panda-Saxby]

Whoever deleted my comment, sorry for the language

 

[Mobruler]

Whoever deleted my comment, sorry for the language

 
I thought it was great.

 

[bosoxlover12]

I mean, come on nola. You look at game tape and you see, Monta was far more instrumental in the Mavs winning 49 games than Tyreke for the Pels 34 win season; he ran their friggin offense. He scored more, he had more assists, he shot better from the field, shot better from the line, was miles better from 3. He led the league in transition baskets last year, and he is one of the better attackers in the league. Statistically, he produced more steals than Evans too, although steals isnt a great barometer for how defense is played.
 
Ellis isnt a great defender, but also look at the team he played on last year. the lineup he played with mostly was with VC and Calderon in the backcourt; Monta was the top defender there. He had to take on the Westbrooks, the Parkers, the Lillards, the Currys. Meanwhile, Reke had Gordon and Holiday; he never had to face any of those guys. Ellis surely held his own, and I think he is a much better defender than he gets credit for. Either way, neither are good defenders, but I'd give Monta a slight edge.
 
Seriously, I dont see how you can make an argument for Tyreke Evans being better than Monta Ellis, aside from being a blatant homer. Seriously.

 

[Mobruler]

 
Just random numbers I made up lol, not anything official.  But yes, Tyreke is a SIGNIFICANTLY better defender than Ellis.  We're talking about a guy that allows more than a half a point per more per defensive play per possession.  0.814 points per possession for Ellis to 0.756 points per possession for Tyreke to be exact.  Tyreke also fouled shooters significantly less (4.8% to 7.3%), and this is on ball and off ball.  The difference in their defense on the ball is even greater.
 
And yes, you win the game by putting the ball through the rim.  But there is so much more meaningful things to qualify exactly how effective you are at putting the ball in the rim.  I mean just throw Monta and Reke out of this.  Does one player having more possessions, more shots, more opportunities to score the ball now make him better than someone else?  Even if that player who put the ball through the rim more is less efficient at doing it?  Are we now penalizing players for playing in a halfcourt offense as opposed to an offense that pushes the ball in the open court?  The possibilities are endless.

 
Here's your problem, and I do respect your passion for trying to completely evaluate players and give defense a huge consideration, your problem is that it's much harder to score the ball or assist on scoring the ball than it is to prevent the score.  You are coming at this like this:
 
Player A: Scores 24 PPG, allows 18 PPG, thereby has a +6 value
 
Player B: Scores 18 PPG, allows 11 PPG, thereby has a +7 value
 
Player B is more valuable.
 
This is not true because this would rely on a principle that scoring the ball vs. preventing scoring of the ball is a 1 to 1 ratio.  This is not true.
 
The best players in NBA history missed more than they made when the ball left their hands.  If you have a 45% field goal percentage, you are a pretty efficient scorer.  It is insanely easier to hold opponents under 50% while defending them than it is to score over 50% while being defended.
 
Michael Jordan is the best player ever because having a .497 FG% as a guard is such an insane feat.
 
The defender is a great thing, but the defender does NOT cancel out the scorer in equal applications.
 
Aside from that fundamental flaw, in this situation, Ellis was a more valuable player for his team than Evans was.  So you're also not taking into account things such as the quality of players both guys were defending and at which point of the game they were defending them.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I know I said I'm not voting anymore, but why is Tyreke Evans being mentioned in the SG threads? If you're going to make Dragic a SG based on where he played most this year, you have to make Evans a SF for the same reason, right?

 

[bosoxlover12]

fwiw, on Hoopstats.com, for graded Efficiency, here are the Top 10s:
 
PG:
1. Paul
2. Curry
3. Westbrook
4. Lowry
5. Wall
6. Dragic
7. Lawson
8. Irving
9. Lillard
10. I.Thomas
14. Conley
17. Rondo
21. Parker
 
SG:
1. Harden
2. DeRozan
3. Wade
4. Ellis
5. Stephenson
6. Afflalo
7. Beal
8. J.Johnson
9. Martin
10. Thompson
 
SF: 
1. Durant
2. James
3. George
4. Batum
5. Gay
6. Parsons
7. Leonard
8. Ariza
9. Hayward
10. J.Smith
11. Evans
 
PF:
1. Love
2. Davis
3. Griffin
4. Anthony
5. Aldridge
6. Nowitzki
7. Millsap
8. Lee
9. Ibaka
10. Randolph
 
C:
1. Cousins
2. Jefferson
3. Howard
4. Noah
5. Drummond
6. Jordan
7. P.Gasol
8. Duncan
9. Vucevic
10. Pekovic

 

[jonathanlambert33]

I mean, come on nola. You look at game tape and you see, Monta was far more instrumental in the Mavs winning 49 games than Tyreke for the Pels 34 win season; he ran their friggin offense. He scored more, he had more assists, he shot better from the field, shot better from the line, was miles better from 3. He led the league in transition baskets last year, and he is one of the better attackers in the league. Statistically, he produced more steals than Evans too, although steals isnt a great barometer for how defense is played.
 
Ellis isnt a great defender, but also look at the team he played on last year. the lineup he played with mostly was with VC and Calderon in the backcourt; Monta was the top defender there. He had to take on the Westbrooks, the Parkers, the Lillards, the Currys. Meanwhile, Reke had Gordon and Holiday; he never had to face any of those guys. Ellis surely held his own, and I think he is a much better defender than he gets credit for. Either way, neither are good defenders, but I'd give Monta a slight edge.
 
Seriously, I dont see how you can make an argument for Tyreke Evans being better than Monta Ellis, aside from being a blatant homer. Seriously.

 
For starters, I see a guy named Dirk Nowitzki that was FAR more instrumental in the Mavs winning 49 games.  Yes Ellis played well, but Dirk had a far bigger impact on that team.  Lets be perfectly honest here, if you replace Monta Ellis with Tyreke Evans on that team, as their second option offensively, how many less games do they win?  It's not a significant number.  Just to get that out the way.
 
Now to address all the raw stuff.  I'll repeat what I said a few posts ago.  
 

But there is so much more meaningful things to qualify exactly how effective you are at putting the ball in the rim.  I mean just throw Monta and Reke out of this.  Does one player having more possessions, more shots, more opportunities to score the ball now make him better than someone else?  Even if that player who put the ball through the rim more is less efficient at doing it?  Are we now penalizing players for playing in a halfcourt offense as opposed to an offense that pushes the ball in the open court?  The possibilities are endless.

 
I don't care so much about the "Monta scored more points, Monta had more assists, Monta shot better, Monta led the league in transition baskets last year, Monta reordered more steals, etc etc etc.  I prefer to focus less on the player and more on the play.  I'll repeat this again, the possibilities are endless.  All situations are not equal, all shots are not equal, all opportunities are not equal.  
 
What I mean by that is, if I ask Monta to control the ball on a PnR, what will he give me?  If I ask Tyreke to control the ball on a PnR, what will he give me?  If I call for a set that requires Monta to run off a back screen what will he give me?  Flare screen?  How is that compared to Tyreke?  Yes I like to look at stats, I study all kind of stats.  I understand their significance and I know which ones are useful and which ones aren't.  With that said though, I'm much more of a x's and o's guy.  I use stats only to confirm what I see.
 
So to answer some of those questions.  What will you get with on ball screens?  Well the answer to that is clear when I watch the two, and it's that Monta will give you more.  It's because of his ability to get to the rim or rise up and hit the shot off the bounce, he's unpredictable and it keeps the defense on its toes.  Compared to a guy like Tyreke who will struggle to hit from the outside and as a result teams go under screens or even play off screens and crowd the lane forcing him not only into more misses, but more turns as well.
 
What about coming off screens?  That ones easy and doesn't even take watching anything.  The Pelicans didn't even run Tyreke off screens looking for shots because he wasn't a threat.  What about isolating and clearing out?  People don't know this, but Monta is a horrid isolation player.  He's shot sub-30% two of the past four seasons and shot 37% and 33% in the remaining two. Mainly because his focus shifts from attacking and getting others involved to peforming fancy dribble moves and pulling up for contested twos while forgetting there is even four others on the court with him. Where as Tyreke is one of the better iso guys in the league. He's quick in his judgements, make his dribbles count, and attacks the lane. If a team collapses, he kicks out to shooters on the wings or in the corners. If they don't, he tries to finish. Tyreke is also a better player off the ball. He moves and reads the defense, and is exceptional cutting ranking in the top 10% of cutters in the league. You should get the point, I'm not going to sit here and type out my dissection of their respective games.

In terms of assisting, Tyreke actually had a better assist rate while turning the ball over less. That's significant. In terms of defense, Jrue missed 48 games and Gordon and Reke didn't even play that much together. And from watching defensive possessions with Ellis this season, specifically the playoffs, he wasn't guarding the top guys. He rarely defended Parker in the playoffs. He spent the majority of his time on reserves or someone like Danny Green or Kawhi Leonard. And to further the point Ellis has never been a good defender.

Lastly, go back and quote me if you must, but I've never made the argument that Tyreke is better than Monta. The argument I've made is purely sarcastic, and that is if Monta is a top 5 SG then so is Tyreke. Meaning neither are.