2011 NBA Finals Thread

[DJT]

Stockton wouldn't trade his career for anything, he's not that type of guy.

 

[CameronCrazy06]

One of my favorite things to do when looking at old basketball stats is to compare players with different reputations and see if perception agrees with reality. Sometimes, it does -- any way you cut it, Michael Jordan was miles better than contemporaries like Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler. Other times, though, it's not so clear-cut -- I present to you the case of Isiah Thomas v. John Stockton.


When they sit down to rank the "best point guards" or what have you, most people place Thomas slightly ahead of Stockton, primarily citing Isiah's 2 championships (against Stockton's zero) as the ringleader of the Detroit Pistons' "Bad Boys" of the late 1980s. It seems to make sense, right? I mean, Thomas was brash and cocky, an in-your-face competitor who grabbed the spotlight in the game's biggest moments; conversely, Stockton was unassuming and deferential, sometimes viewed as merely a cog (along with Karl Malone) in Jazz coach Jerry Sloan's pick-n-roll machine. So on the face of it, it looks pretty obvious that Thomas' career was superior to that of Stockton.

I'm here to challenge that assumption, however.

Don't get me wrong, Isiah Thomas was a great player. He earned first- or second-team All-NBA honors 5 times, led the league in assists twice, and had many indelible moments in the crucible of the playoffs (remember his MVP performance in the 1990 Finals, or his 25 3rd-quarter points on a badly sprained ankle in Game 6 of the '88 Finals?). In fact, in the postseason -- when most players' numbers decline due to the increased strength of opponent -- Isiah's numbers actually improved markedly, from 6.78 career regular-season WS/3000 min. to 8.68 in the playoffs. Face it, the man was tough, and he was one of the clutchest scorers in NBA history.

But why is it a foregone conclusion that his body of work outpaces that of Stockton? Stockton led the league in assists 9 times in a row from 1988-1996. With 15,806 career helpers, he's easily the league's all-time leader -- he has almost 5,500 more than runner-up Mark Jackson. Eight times he was 1st- or 2nd-team All-NBA. He made the All-Defensive team 5 times; he led the league in steals twice. In a rarity for a guard, his career FG% was .515 (by comparison, Thomas' was .452). He missed out on the mythical 20,000-point club by a mere 289 points. Perhaps Stockton's most amazing trait, though, was his durability: while Thomas played 979 career games and was oft-injured late in his 13-year career, Stockton suited up for 1,504 contests (3rd all-time) and missed only 22 games in 19 seasons!

You probably came here for the advanced statistical point of view, though, so here it is: Stockton had 205.4 career Win Shares (3rd all-time) in 19 years, for an average of 10.8 per season; per 3000 minutes, Stockton generated 12.9 wins for the Jazz over the course of his career. Eight times he finished in the league's top 5 in Win Shares, his career offensive rating of 120.5 (which he accomplished while taking on 21.9% of Utah's possessions when on the floor) ranks 4th in NBA history, and he had a career DRtg of 104.0 in an era where the league's average was 106.7. By contrast, Thomas's 80.3 career Win Shares ranks 88th all-time, and he averaged 6.2 per season; his career WS/3000 min. mark is 6.8. Only once (1984-85) did Isiah finish in the top 5 in WS, and he had a career ORtg of 106.3 and a DRtg of 106.8 in an era where the league's average was 107.5. The only facets of the game where Isiah was superior to Stockton were his shot-creating ability (Thomas did take on 26.5% of Detroit's possessions while on the court) and his rebounding (Thomas' 5.3 career rebound rate is marginally better than Stockton's 5.0), but in every other area -- TS%, assist ratio, steal rate, etc. -- Stockton kills Isiah in terms of regular-season numbers.

Oh, but what about the playoffs? After all, that's where Isiah really made his money (and Stockton always failed)... right? Um, not quite. Stockton had 21.2 career playoff Win Shares; Thomas had 12.2. Stockton's career playoff WS/3K rate: 9.94; Thomas' rate: 8.68. Turns out that in the playoffs, it's the same story as above: Isiah is superior in shot-creation and rebounding, but fails to outpace Stockton on the shooting, passing, and defensive fronts.

So why do people almost universally consider Thomas to be better than Stockton when they give their all-time point guard rankings? Stockton was more durable, more consistent, a better pure PG, more productive (both cumulatively and on a per-minute basis), and was even better in the playoffs, where Stock played a remarkable 182 career games. It is true that the Jazz never won an NBA crown with Stockton at the helm. It is also true that Isiah led Detroit to 2 rings. But hey, Robert Horry has 7 career rings, and no one is suggesting he's better than Karl Malone. In other words, in light of the overwhelming evidence I've laid out above, isn't it about time we reconsider the Stockton-Thomas debate?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441

This argument more than presents my point for me. Rip is a Pistons fan and you are a guy who will always side with a great black athlete over a great white one. I have yet to hear any valid arguement for why Thomas was a BETTER POINT GUARD than Stockton. Have a nice day.

 

[RipCity32]

It would make my day to see CC leave tonight thinking he accomplished something lmao.

 

[The Young One]

I always side with the black athlete you're a fucking joke for bringing race into it...why do I support guys like Jimmer then

The same way you guys shit on Bron for not winning it's even easier to shit on Stockton for not winning shit

The same way you can pull up a basketball site..I can pull up the Bill Simmons book where Isiah is rated higher than Stoctkon in the top rated players

 

[cruzg24]

lmao, that is soooo awesome! Gonna wear my Dirk jersey tomorrow and post it in the SI member photo thread! lol

 

[CameronCrazy06]

I always side with the black athlete you're a fucking joke for bringing race into it...why do I support guys like Jimmer then

The same way you guys shit on Bron for not winning it's even easier to shit on Stockton for not winning shit

The same way you can pull up a basketball site..I can pull up the Bill Simmons book where Isiah is rated higher than Stoctkon in the top rated players

What other reason could it be but race? You have yet to bring up one valid reason for why Thomas is better. You keep citing A) Championships, yet ignore that Thomas's teams were far better B) ONE game. ONEEEEE game and yet you ignore the fact that Stockton won the overall head-to-head battle. Just read the article and if you find anything wrong with it don't be afraid to tell me. Other than just plain scoring, what was Thomas better than Stockton at? (Hint: The answer is NOTHING)

 

[The Young One]

Idc about the stats and none of the other bullshit at the end of the day..when you pull up your chairs with the greats..what did you win?

Stockton never won shit..you keep bringing up how great those bad boys teams were..who was the franchise player..who were those teams built around..

And just as easy as it is for you to pull the race card..I can also say you're more inclined to side with stockton cuz he's white...and your favorite player is white..and your favorite college basketball team is known for something to do with whites

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Idc about the stats and none of the other bullshit at the end of the day..when you pull up your chairs with the greats..what did you win?

Stockton never won shit..you keep bringing up how great those bad boys teams were..who was the franchise player..who were those teams built around..

And just as easy as it is for you to pull the race card..I can also say you're more inclined to side with stockton cuz he's white...and your favorite player is white..and your favorite college basketball team is known for something to do with whites

I'm not even pulling out stats right now. Stockton was a better passer, defender, shooter, etc. Like I said, Thomas was a more dynamic scorer, that's it. That's not stats that's just facts.

You can try to bring it to rings all you want but it's just not right. Ewing is still considered a top ten center despite never winning a ring. Karl Malone is still considered a top five PF despite never winning a ring, so is Sir Charles Barkley. Stockton a top 5 PG, Elgin Baylor one of the all-time greats, etc.

Like you're just stating un-true facts in saying those teams were "built around Isaiah". They were one of the most well-rounded champions of all-time. That's like saying the Heat are built around LeBron right now. That the Lakers were built around Shaq... no. Those Pistons were a team - Isiah was their best player but the team was NOT built around him, anybody who knows anything about basketball understands that.

And sure you can play the race-card right back at me. But based off my track record, is that smart? I hate on Jimmer, the most culturally relevant white-athlete right now other than Dirk. That just doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[The Young One]

And just FYI..majority of the people in your article are taking Isiah over Zeke

The measure of what a great player has changed from the 80s till now. In the 80s if you didn't win a title you were not considered the best. After Jordan ran roughshod over the league and left many a hall of famer Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Payton (ring chasers need not apply) without a title, seems like the media wants to say those guys were great too even if they didn't win it all.

I'm sorry I disagree, they were HOF's obviously. But guys like Isiah who basically willed his team to two titles deserve to be held in a higher regard. Also when Zeke matched up with Stockton he usually tore him a new one. The 44 he dropped on his head after he got left off the dream team (travesty), he was well on his way to doing it again in SLC, till big brother K. Malone decided he didn't want to see his little buddy get lit up again, and gave Isiah a gash that took 40 stiches to close.

Lucky for Stock

Again the point of the game is to win championships, and for all Isiah's faults off the court, no little man has ever been the best player on his team and won a championship let alone two titles except him. There is a reason why they call it a big man's game.

Agreed Issac. Maybe this is a completely different argument, but let's switch their roles. Do you really think that Stockton wins a title let alone two with the Pistons? Maybe Isiah wasn't the truest PG in the set up and just get assists sense. Why that is a true definition of a PG I don't know. In my opinion a PG get the team to play to the best of its ability. To piggyback of Jason J's point, Isiah did what was needed. When another player had a better match up, he deferred. But when the Bad Boys needed a bucket, who did they turn to?

Neil better stats? How about ppg, asssist pg, and steals pg? Thomas wins hands down in playoffs and regular season in ppg. He is damn close in assists and steals regular season. And playoffs he is better steals and about an assist less per game. His shooting percentages arent as good but they are hardly allen iverson throw it up and see if it hits material either. And none of the stats take into consideration clutch. This debate is a joke. Stockton was a great player, nice player. But he was no Thomas. Ill take a dominant player for 12-13 seasons and two championships over stocktons career anyday. And by the way he wasnt oft injured late in his career. You seem to struggle to make your case for stockton. Using stats like win shares per 3000 minutes and comparing Horry to Malone. It speaks volumes for your case. This pistons of this era have the only players with winning records of MJs bulls, Birds Celtics and Magics Lakers in the playoffs. And Thomas was by far their best player, leader and clutch performer. Stockton cannot say the same.

You can debate the quotes from the readers off the article...they even seem to slant towards zeke

 

[DJT]

Neither of you will change the others' mind...you do realize that right?

 

[CameronCrazy06]

Lol you're actually quoting anonymous posters commenting on the article. What's next are you going to quote the Real GM message boards? You may have just hit rock bottom.

Take MJ out of that era and Stockton and Malone go down as two of the top ten players in NBA history, who won titles with a cast of role players. I'm sorry Thomas got his rings in the pre-Jordan prime era. I'm sorry Stockton didn't have nearly the supporting cast that Thomas did.

A championship is a team accomplishment, for you to compare individual players based on rings completely devalues that, and you know better than that. I am comparing the two as individual players, and Thomas doesn't stack up. Better scorer, yes. Can't find any other areas, though. It's just like D-Rose vs. CP3. Rose has the PPG stats but Paul is the better overall point guard.

Thomas may have been a more talented player than Stockton. But Stockton was a better POINT GUARD and it's not even that close.

 

[Dorado]

 

[Mexi]

Dirk just leaving the court to go capture the moment, cry a little bit, is pretty awesome

what an amazing player. just transformed these playoffs. he seriously was a different guy
always been great, but he was just different

congrats again Dirk.

 

[Dorado]

Dirk just leaving the court to go capture the moment, cry a little bit, is pretty awesome

what an amazing player. just transformed these playoffs. he seriously was a different guy
always been great, but he was just different

congrats again Dirk.

I think Cuban letting Don Carter get presented with the trophy was pretty classy

 

[Mexi]

I think Cuban letting Don Carter get presented with the trophy was pretty classy

yup

I swear Cuban is doing all this for MLB. he wants a team(coughDODGERScough)

they keep saying no. he was quiet and normal these playoffs. he still has his courtside seat, but so what. even when they won, nothing another owner wouldnt do

 

[The Young One]

That's honestly the dumbest thing I heard..take MJ out of the era and they go down as two top ten guys of all time...still wouldnt be a guarantee they'd ever win shit

It shouldn't matter who they played with since according to you Stockton ran his team better? And you can't compare individuals players without taking rings into accomplishments. It's done in every comparison..when guys compare Bron to guys like Bird and Kobe to Mike..wilt and russell

I'm done..have a good night

 

[CameronCrazy06]

That's honestly the dumbest thing I heard..take MJ out of the era and they go down as two top ten guys of all time...still wouldnt be a guarantee they'd ever win shit

It shouldn't matter who they played with since according to you Stockton ran his team better? And you can't compare individuals players without taking rings into accomplishments. It's done in every comparison..when guys compare Bron to guys like Bird and Kobe to Mike..wilt and russell

I'm done..have a good night

Lol you just contradicted yourself right there, thank you very much. Russell has tons more rings than Chamberlain but yet the general consensus is that Chamberlain was the better player. Thanks for proving my point.

Like I said, championships are a team accomplishment. Stop de-valuing that.

 

[The Young One]

No it honestly isnt..most rank Russell higher for the fact that he actually won...

 

[CameronCrazy06]

No it honestly isnt..most rank Russell higher for the fact that he actually won...

Lol that couldn't be more wrong. Wilt Chamberlain is the general consensus greatest center of all-time. And whether you're done or not, I just want you to know that you have yet to provide ANY reasoning.

What is Thomas better than Stockton at other than scoring?

 

[Mexi]

for what it's worth, Isiah had better teams...

im with CC on this argument