elcheato @ RipCity32

[.snowy]

elcheato@ RipCity32

TOPIC: Who has had the best rookie season over the last 10 years?

elcheato has the right to post first.​

You will have a week to exchange posts. If you feel like you're argument is closed, then you can close it, that just means your opponent can continue to debate his point and argue against yours. No maximum or minimum number of points, all depends on how concise or elaborate you want to be.

Once each debater has closed their argument, or I close the debate, then the three judges will be assigning each debater a score out of 10. When scoring, the judges should assess how well the debater has proven their point, using valid and relevant discussion, statistical evidence where appropriate, rebuttal where applicable, and overall coherency.

Judges are allowed to deem the debate a tie, giving each debater the same score out of 10. I am using this scoring system, as opposed to simply voting, as a back up for a tie breaker in the standings.

 

[elcheato]

I'll go with LeBron James for the best rookie in the last 10 years.

It was obvious since he was a freshman that he was going to be the first overall pick when he entered the NBA draft and I'll say thankfully the Cavaliers landed him Anyway, LeBron was brought into a tough situation in Cleveland. They were coming one of the franchises worst seasons and the only help he would have in Cleveland would be Zydrunas Ilgauskas and a young Carlos Boozer.

With this pretty bad team, LeBron managed to put up stats that players dream of getting as a veteran. He put up over 20 points per game with the world looking at him. He had the most hype ever for a rookie, and he lived up to it.

Also, he managed to get 6 assists per game an 5 rebounds per game playing Point Guard on one of the worst teams in the league to go with that 20 points per game.

In 2002-2003, the Cavaliers had only 17 wins, and coming off that season they would trade there leading scorer from the year, Ricky Davis, 22 games into the season, leaving LeBron with literally nothing. That 17 win total, changed to 35 in 2003-2004. The Cavaliers lost a 20 ppg scorer off there team, added LeBron, and added 18 more wins.

 

[RipCity32]

I will go with another rookie from that same draft class. Carmelo Anthony out of Syracuse, as the best rookie season over the last 10 years.

I will start my argument with the way you ended yours, the team game. What were the Denver Nuggets the year before they got Carmelo Anthony? How about 17-65. That was good for last in the NBA, tied with the Cleveland Cavaliers. Also sat at 25th in the NBA in fan attendance. Key players on the team were Juwan Howard, James Posey, and Nene.

Fast forward a year later, with Carmelo Anthony. Finished the regular season 43-39. That is 26 more games won then the previous year. And this is on a team that was still fairly week. They got rid of their PPG leader from the year before, Juwan Howard. Who did manage to put up 18 a game. Not only that, but Carmelo made the Nuggets the 8th team in the West for the playoffs. Now keep in mind that both the Nuggets and Cavaliers had identical records, and neither team had any substantial moves to make their team better, so Melo was able to carry the team on his shoulder a bit farther then LeBron did. And a stat that really impresses me is the fact they went from 25th in the NBA in attendance, all the way to 12th. All because of the rave of the rookie Carmelo Anthony. He led one of the greatest turnarounds the NBA has seen. Now I'm sure the Cavs had a similar turnaround with the fan support, but the Nuggets fans were rewarded with more victories. But not only that, but in both of their rookie seasons, Carmelo and the Nuggets managed to sweep the season series between their 2 teams, going 2-0. Game in which LeBron scores only 7, then 19. While Carmelo went for 14 then 26. The Cavs also had Ricky Davis both of those games..

The numbers between the 2 in their rookie seasons were quite identical. They both put up 21 points a game. Both had 6 rebounds. LeBron did manage to get 3 more assists, but he played PG for the team. Carmelo played the SF. Carmelo did put up a better FG%, FT%, and 3P%. He also did what he did in 3 less minutes of time then LeBron did.

When it was all said and done, Carmelo really deserved that ROTY honors, or at least a share of the prize.

 

[elcheato]

The Nuggets team only did get 17 wins, but Melo was not the only move they made... The Nuggets completely re-tooled that team, giving a lot around Melo.

Yes, they did lose Juwan Howard, but you are completely wrong on the entire basis of your argument.

Now keep in mind that both the Nuggets and Cavaliers had identical records, and neither team had any substantial moves to make their team better, so Melo was able to carry the team on his shoulder a bit farther then LeBron did. And a stat that really impresses me is the fact they went from 25th in the NBA in attendance, all the way to 12th

That is completely wrong.. Are you trying to tell me adding Andre Miller, a very solid PG who got 14/6 with nearly 2 steals is nothing? Adding Voshon Lenard, who ended up scoring 14 points per game on that team, is nothing? Marcus Camby playing an entire season, unlike 02-03, giving his great defense and rebounding, is nothing? Saying that no improvements were made on that team is completely wrong.

On the other hand, the Cavaliers did nothing but trade there top scorer away during the season, also got rid of Darius Miles.

The Nuggets should have beaten the Cavs twice.. They had much more talent on the team. 2 solid, starting caliber bigs in Nene and Camby, a solid scorer in Lenord, and then a very good PG in Andre Miller. And Melo can thank Miller for a lot of his production as well. LeBron had no PG to help him, he was the Point Guard.

LeBron got 20/5/5 as a rookie, how many players do that right now in the NBA? Not many. LeBron had to carry that Cavs team to the turn around they had. Melo had LOTS of help in getting that turn around.

 

[RipCity32]

Alright then, keeping the turnaround aside. If LeBron was better would he of but up much better stats than Carmelo? If it was him and a bunch of scrubs he should of put up 30 a game.

And last time I checked, Carlos Boozer, Big Z, and Jeff McInnis weren't scrubs. And the Cavs team still didn't win even with Davis.

 

[elcheato]

It's hard to put up better stats where there isn't much protection around you.

Did you not read my original post where I clearly stated all the Cavs had around James was Carlos Boozer and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Even though it is quite obvious, Ilgauskas' offense game is mostly thanks to LeBron drawing so much attention, leaving him wide open for mid range jumpers.

And Jeff McInnis didn't even play half a season on the team.

 

[RipCity32]

Yes, but realize that the question states who had the best rookie season. Not the best rookie. I see no way that LeBron's rookie season was better. He didn't do much when you look back besides put up the numbers.

Melo put up the numbers and helped his team make the playoffs.

 

[elcheato]

Yea, and its quite obvious LeBron had the better rookie season.. He put the better overall stats up with 20/5/5, only 4 players in the NBA do that right now, and LeBron is one of those players. He led his team as the PG, he was overall better. Melo's assist to turn over ratio was below 1...

Yea, he helped his team get to the playoffs with much more talent on his team. LeBron did way more for his team then Melo did. Melo didn't have to create for everyone on the team. I don't see how a player who is basically just a scorer, can be considered to have a better season then a guy who puts up the same amount of points basically, and does more for his team then just score.

 

[RipCity32]

I think the stats lie a bit for LeBron if you say that team was really THAT bad. And if you say Denver was THAT good, then wouldn't Melo's stats be watered down a bit? For all we know he could of averaged 30 a night in Cleveland the same year.

And naturally LBJ's assist/turnover ratio would be better, because he played PG which is going to lead to more assists..

And just because Melo is played just a scorers role doesn't mean his season can't be better. No Melo means no 21 points. And ultimately no playoffs.

Carmelo was a HUGE piece to that teams success. If you removed him, they are in for another year in the lottery. And you could add LeBron too the team instead of Carmelo the same year, but you probably still wouldn't get the same success. He wouldn't be asked to play PG due to Miller there, and he wasn't the scorer Carmelo was that year either. So he wouldn't be putting up the same scoring numbers that Carmelo did.

I think to determine a good rookie season, you have to look at his stats and his teams success. And if you factor those both in, the winner goes to Carmelo Anthony.

 

[elcheato]

Stats don't necessarily become better or become worse depending on your team's status. LeBron's stats have stayed around the same numbers since his 2nd season in the NBA, and the Cavs have not had the same record every year.

I was just using his assist to turn over ratio as an example on how he was just a scorer, and that all he did for the Nuggets.

Well when you are a scorer, and a person is putting up the same points and doing more overall, it will make the other player look better.

No way, I thought Melo was just a roll player.. I'm not taking away from the fact that he was a great help to that team, but he did not have to do it alone. How do you know how the Nuggets would do with LeBron instead of Melo? That's right, you don't know..

There is a certain point to where you can look at team success. The talent on that Nuggets team should have put them into the playoffs, which it did.

 

[RipCity32]

You made it sound like the only thing Melo did was score. He got 6 rebounds a game, 3 assists, and a steal a game. He wasn't their merely to fire away. He completed the team for them.

But ok, take away Melo from that Nuggets roster. Do you honestly think they have any chance at the playoffs? Their star player would be Andre Miller... Carmelo was the reason they made the playoffs. You make it seem like they had a team full of All-Stars. They barely made the playoffs. And they still finished 6th in their division. If LeBron really did have a better rookie season, he should of been able to do the same.

LeBron is the better player obviously, but Carmelo had the better rookie season. And that is what the debate is.

 

[elcheato]

He scored 20 points per game... He has to get some rebounds considering he is at SF. He was a pure scorer that is it, and the 1 steal means nothing, it doesn't hide his extremely terrible defense overall.

They might not make the playoffs but they probably wouldn't be under 20 wins... Carmelo was not the reason they made the playoffs.. Without that PG dishing him the ball, he'd probably lose some scoring. Yea I totally said the Nuggets have a team full of all-stars It's hard to make the playoffs when your supporting class is extremely weak.

But since Melo's team that clearly had a better supporting cast made the playoffs, he had the better season?

LeBron was the better player, he had the better stats, with a supporting cast not as good as Melo.. I don't see how Melo had the better season just because his team who clearly had better players made the playoffs.

 

[RipCity32]

I don't understand how the players were clearly better? They added Miller and Boykins. Lost their best player the year before Juwan Howard. They were better, but not head and shoulders better

And you said they wouldn't of made the playoffs without Melo, but he wasn't the reason they made the playoffs? That makes no sense.

Melo creates his own shots usually, so I don't see what a PG helps with that much when it comes to his own scoring. Because the leader assist getter for them was PG Andre Miller at 6 assists a game. So that's maybe 1 or 2 assists to Melo a game. Which leads to 4-6 of Melo's 21 a game. So that's a small fraction.

And by the way, Melo played and started all 82 games his rookie season. He and Andre Miller were the only 2 to do so. Nene missed a couple, Camby missed 10, Lenard missed 10. So that meant Melo had to step up even more for the team, and he did so. Helped them make the playoffs, and to a over .500 record. Unlike LeBron, who might of helped them get some wins, but ultimately they were right back in the lottery. (though I don't believe they had their own pick)

 

[DC4]

Rip 9/10 Made me believe carmelo helped benefit his team a lot, especially the year after the drafted carmelo, and how much they improve from the previous season

cheato 8/10 Lebron was a really good rookie, but melo really helped his team after he was drafted and melo did have the better rookie season

 

[elcheato]

Rip 9/10 Made me believe carmelo helped benefit his team a lot, especially the year after the drafted carmelo, and how much they improve from the previous season

cheato 8/10 Lebron was a really good rookie, but melo really helped his team after he was drafted and melo did have the better rookie season

lol

 

[kdogg]

I'll give this one a 9/10 tie. LeBron probably had the better individual season in his rookie season, but Carmelo's team obviously did better and his stats weren't all that bad as a rookie either.

 

[DC4]

cheato's mad.

 

[jarrod2323]

Based on this: .
elcheato gave individual statistics as overall team improvement - great start. Rip did well to point out head-to-head matchups.

Did you not read my original post where I clearly stated all the Cavs had around James was Carlos Boozer and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

- great rebuttal. Never concede that the opponent is better - both did so, so that's a wash.
I wish defense would have been brought up, as LBJ's stats were far better than Melo's, a definite miss.
To actually point out a winner, I have to go by best Rookie season. This is judged by stats and then record. Stats are taken more in consideration due to best rookies are 90% on team that were worse the previous year. My decision was based on lack of statistics in rebuttal on the opponent. Meaning elcheato provided awesome stats on LBJ, but never really used Melo's to hurt him besides ATO - I believe Rip did a better job in this aspect.

elcheato - 9

RipCity32 - 9.5

 

[.snowy]

Winner of this debate by split decision is RipCity32​